The Widdershins

Left-leaning unconventional wisdom.

MORNING WIDDERSHINS:ET TU, LADIES?

Posted by Pat Johnson on July 9, 2009

Image by Bernard de WolffThe controversy swirling around Sarah Palin this week in her abrupt decision to resign her gubernatorial role is huge! Everybody and his brother has signed on with one theory after another as to why and what led to this break with her constituents and what the future has in store with regard to her next move. Much of the chatter throughout the blogosphere largely assumes that she was “forced out” by the actions of a hostile press which brought untold emotional harm to her family and left her no choice but to resign. I have no idea what led to this decision since what she said in her press conference was “fuzzy”at best, and even those reporters and talking heads, a lot smarter and more adept at reading through the lines than I am, are hard pressed themselves to establish a clear objective.

What brings me to this subject is the vitriol and hostility emanating from many feminist sites who are more than willing to hang this resignation around the neck of “sexism” only, and who bluster and decry any other presumed reason around this event. Granted, she was in the crosshairs of some vile and disgusting comments regarding her personal life. What came off the page, and was prevalent on many blog sites, were many vicious comments that should have been immediately scrubbed out of a sense of decency if nothing else. But here I was also reading  similar comments coming from so called feminist outposts joining ranks with the other blogs acting out in the same manner.

I am no fan of Michele Obama. She truthfully does not interest me. She is the First Lady, wife of a man I did not support, and for all intents and purposes, an attentive mother. That she chose to remain out of the public spotlight and devote herself to her daughters as they make the transition to an unexpected jolt in their normal routine is commendable. Michele Obama did not run for office, nor does she owe the nation more than to do what she feels is in her best interest as is her choice. Is that not what feminism preaches? The right to choose one’s own path as we travel through life and to be able to do so based on our own decision making and not rely on the decree of others?

But hold on. This courtesy was not conferred upon her. She was blasted for not taking on a much more involved role as First Lady! For choosing to stay home when she could have been working! For setting aside her Ivy League education in place of baking cookies and overseeing her daughters homework! This does not bother me since one less Obama making policy in the WH suits me fine! As far as I am concerned, she can stay home and bake to her heart’s content. It still remains her choice.

However, as the feminist voices rise up by punctuating the critics who slammed Palin, one thing goes missing in the outburst. This same beating was also in large part delivered against Michele Obama by some of the same bloggers and commentators who now “cry foul” in rushing to the defense of Palin. I have seen female commentators compare Michele Obama to a “gorilla”. Her clothing and make up held up for ridicule. Her butt, tummy and arms laughed at. Her hairstyle, fashion sense, hell, even her shoe size seized upon by the same outraged “feminists” who now cry “unfair” when it comes to the same abuse heaped upon by critics of Sarah Palin. These are female commentators who have referred to Michele as “ugly, hateful, monkey face, mean, untrustworthy, spiteful” and any other perjoritive I may have missed.  “Bitch”" was a big favorite.  Comments delivered by women to another woman based primarily on the fact that her husband, whom they did not support, was running for president and had defeated Hillary Clinton.

When did it become “acceptable” to pile onto one woman as they did so viciously and voraciously, and when did that same attitude become “ unacceptable” when it came to another? Why were totally racist and horribly mean spirited comments allowed through the filter when discussing Michele Obama, when any comment perceived as an “attack” on Palin was either scrubbed or met with such rank hostility by some on the blogs that it defied credulity? When Michele, a female, could be referred to as a “gorilla” while other commentators excused or applauded this obscenity, this same group could than shift into an outright defense of Palin without examining the dichotomy of this position. I am reaching for some sense of consistency here. What is the feminist position here folks is all I am asking. Forget the sense of fair play. Simply consider the hypocrisy of these posters and commentators who today are the loudest voices in defense of one woman, calling out others as sexists and trolls because they refuse to buy into some of the Palin adulation, but who were more than willing participants in the piling on and denigration of another female and did so without compunction.

I am no fan of either one. Neither Michele nor Sarah interest me. But the rampant hypocrisy that I see emanating from the blogosphere itself, from women who crown themselves “feminists” and “defenders of sexist attacks”, who vow to stand up until they are “knocked down” in challenging the misogyny they see running wild out there, need to reexamine themselves when it comes to these outbursts. If it applies to one then it applies to all, regardless of political beliefs, party labels, or “crushes” on candidates of the moment. The outrage to those unwarranted attacks must apply across the board.

But save your faux outrage, your manufactured tears, your misguided attempts to cast yourselves as the pure upholders of all things “feminist”. It is pretty clear that some do not have a clue. In demanding that other blogs delete sexist comments altogether, let’s consider that you do the same. Perhaps one way of overriding these disgusting commentaries is to begin practicing what you preach as well.

Free speech need not sanction a steady stream of invective in an attempt to prove a point. Women who do are nothing more than the same frat boy mentality they so often single out as proof. We cannot elevate the conversation unless we agree that picking and choosing who is eligible to be defended, as opposed to who is not, is swept away.

If the shoe fits, wear it.  A little harsh perhaps but well worth the contemplation.  It may be wise to consider that the “sexist” label is not exclusive.

227 Responses to “MORNING WIDDERSHINS:ET TU, LADIES?”

  1. DYB said

    What “feminist sites” defended Palin and attacked Michelle? Do you think there is more of them than those that attacked Palin and defended Michelle?

  2. BeMindful said

    Pat, I’ve not come across any feminist sites that attacked Michelle. The leading liberal sites have idolized both her and Barack. At the Huffington Post, Michelle’s every move is greeted with applause. She’s described as beautiful, loving, stylish, smart, etc. Plus, I don’t think you can justify the ill treatment of one woman, by suggesting that another woman might also have been unfairly treated. There is no justification for sexist, misogynist treatment of any woman.

    I’m also concerned about the big picture, the increasing desensitization of our culture. It’s becoming coarser every day, and both men and women are dragging it down. I continue to wince every time I come across the F word, which actually refers to rape. And the use of the word “balls” for courage also offends me.

  3. Pat Johnson said

    I am illustrating the posters leaving comments at these sites, not the site itself. Commentators both defending Hillary and Palin have been allowed to leave some pretty unflattering statements about Michele.

    By allowing the posters to indulge themselves in acrid descriptions, the monitors of the site stood aside. One could interpret this gesture as a silent agreement with the content.

  4. chatblu said

    Pat, Any criticism of Michelle Obama has been noted as “racism”. She is brilliant, smart, loving, fashionable, etc. ad nauseum (literally). In fact, the only person that I can find who felt that Michelle had been done poorly was Barack, who felt that his wife had been “brutalized”. Boo-frickin-hoo. I could care less what she does or what her shoe size might be. The press adores her and her “fashion sense” right down to her inauguration dress that appeared to be fashioned from upholstery fabric. Had anyone, anytime made the incredibly sick statements regarding Obama’s wife and daughters, all hell would have broken loose. Somehow Sarah Palin’s kids are fair game. (Of course, David Letterman’s reason for the “knocked up” joke is that he didn’t know that Willow Palin was only 14). Sorry, Pat. I can’t agree with this post.

  5. Pat Johnson said

    I think you might be missing my point. We can all agree that Michele has been well treated by the MSM overall. That is not the issue with this post.

    The issue is in the “comments” that have been posted by women who think nothing of leaving some very scurrilous remarks about another woman and then point out the same treatment against Palin as being “sexist”. These comments are as telling as those left at the mainstream blogs by those in the opposite camp.

  6. chatblu said

    Perhaps, Pat. but I have read any number of feminist blogs and have never seen the criticism if Michelle Obama rise to the level of that absorbed by either Sarah Palin or Hillary Clinton, for that matter. I think that she has for the most part skated, even on some of her legal actions that denied medical care to the uninsured at some facilities that she represented in apparent defiance of the Hill-Burton act. Most left-leaning feminist organizations fawn over her in a manner best described as revolting.

  7. taggles said

    Bemindful, Pat is raising issue with sites that defend Sarah Palin from any criticism and call out sexism, but allow remarks to stand about Michelle, that if said about Palin, would be immediately deleted, called out and the poster run out on a rail.

    I think Pat makes a very fair point.

    It is something we should all be aware of.

    As for the swearing, that is taking things a bit too far on the PC trail.

  8. taggles said

    Chatblu, Pat is discussing sites that defend Palin from sexism.

    Our problem with the lefty feminist groups is that they didn’t stick up for Palin or Hillary.

    So if these Palin defending sites want lefty feminist sites to defend against sexism isn’t it obvious that sites that defend Palin should stand against sexism perpetrated on Michelle.

    I have seen it. I have seen comments here about Michelle that if said about Palin would be described as sexism.

    I think Pat is pointing out the double standard that some allow themselves in politics. I think it’s a very fair point and something to take the time to reflect upon.

  9. chatblu said

    Taggles, I’m pretty certain that if I try hard enough, I can find you a site that says that Nancy Pelosi is the love child of Norma Rae and Satan himself. I just have not found any feminist site that exclusively praises Sarah Palin and excoriates Michelle Obama.

  10. Pat Johnson said

    The issue is in the inconsistency as how some commentators seem to find no hypocrisy in tearing one woman down while praising another then lobby the cry of “sexist” attached to everybody else.

    How does one reconcile this?

  11. Pat Johnson said

    chatblu: It is primarily coming from the commentators themselves. I am not citing one particular blog. It is the comments that emerge that are at issue. And those are mostly women.

  12. carolinenotakennedy said

    Pat, I personally have witnessed each and every thing you mentioned around the blogosphere. Maybe its just that I lurk on the same blogs as you. The double standard is most definetely out there.

    The gorilla reference about Michelle almost sent me over the edge. Why was it left to stand and the conversation allowed to continue on and on and on with others joining in or agreeing with their silence.

    This post speaks the truth and it needed to be said. Thanks for saying it!

  13. Pat Johnson said

    When Michele Obama can be described as “fugly” by women commentators while taking umbrage at anything that slightly resembles criticism of Palin as “sexist” one does have to question the seriousness of this brand of “sisterhood”.

  14. chatblu said

    CNK: Thankfully, I have not found these sites. Michelle should no more be compared unfavorably to a gorilla than Sarah to a slutty fight attendant or “Moose Murder Barbie”. I would hope that you and Pat both commented your displeasure upon these blogs. And I agree wholeheartedly that there is a double standard, but I believe that the double standard in general favors Michelle Obama by about 100:1.

  15. Pat Johnson said

    Again, this is in now way an attempt to weigh the MSM ballyhoo of Michele as opposed to the less favorable coverage of Palin. This in itself is a given.

    It is an attempt to highlight women who come to the blogs and drop these far less flattering comments about Michele than protest the loudest in Palin’s defense. How can one take this outrage seriously by the same practioners?

    You either treat them equally in suspending personal attacks or not at all. But to then decry the “sexism” leveled against one female without regard to the fact that you have openly indulged in the same treatment against another is false.

  16. chatblu said

    Again, I sincerely hope that you communicated this to the blogs in question, as I have yet to find any feminist blog guilty of such practices.

  17. Pat Johnson said

    Be Mindful was correct in suggesting that civil discourse has won the race in its descent to the bottom of what passes for commentary today.

    Just traveling around the blogosphere itself is enough to be convinced that we have lost our grip altogether when an “anything goes” mentally is allowed to take part in sliming. It is difficult to equate reasonable discussion when “STFU” is introduced into the dialogue as a way of making a point.

    We seem to confuse the art of discussion with how loudly, crassly, and colorfully we frame our arguments against those with whom we are in disagreement. And women, unfortunately, the “fairer sex” so to speak, have picked up the gauntlet and jumped right in.

  18. Valhalla said

    I agree that there’s something of a double-standard among commenters in non-obot feminist sites (or feminist-friendly sites), but I really don’t think the hypocrisy is equivalent. First, I’m not sure that all or most of the commenters who are sexist toward Michelle would consider themselves feminists, unlike the Palin-bashing 3rd Wavers who spend much of their time making money or gaining publicity for themselves off of wielding sexism as a tool against Palin, all in the name of feminism.

    Second, the level of viciousness from the Palin-deranged crowd is at a level that is magnitudes higher than that which is directed at Michelle. Palin is the devil incarnate in their Church of Feminism. Their viciousness and hatred really parallels that of the religious Right toward gay people and women. Whereas the comments I’ve seen against Michelle are more averagely misogynistic; that is they’re about par for the course given our misogynistic culture.

    That doesn’t mean that real feminists shouldn’t speak out against them, of course. But I think that, really, the type of anti-Michelle comments that are made can probably be reasonably countered and relatively diminished by pointing out that they’re sexist. But the anti-Palin comments aren’t really just lack of thoughtfulness or lack of stiff consistency on some feminists part; instead, they are one of the tools of war that is being waged on women with so-called feminists’ help, and as such they can’t be corrected with education or reminders.

    I admit I’ve seen the kind of comments you’re talking about Pat, and not often spoken up about them. Partly it’s because Michelle has so many supporters, it doesn’t usually seem to me like she needs defenders. But you’re right that that’s not a good enough excuse.

    One thing I take slight issue with is the idea that feminists can’t criticize Michelle for her role as First Stepford Wife. Yes, what she chooses to do as First Lady should be her choice, but you are a role model to millions of women and girls, the fact that she wraps herself up as “helpmate” and super-fantastic traditional-Mom the same way Laura Bush did, in the year 2009 for pete’s sake, means that she’s just reinforcing the dispiriting idea that even smart, accomplished and prominent women should stay home and putter around the house when their husband’s ambitions come into the picture. Sixteen years ago Hillary Clinton opened the door to the idea that a woman could be a terrific mother and still have professional existence; Michelle has joined with Laura Bush and every other president’s wife in nailing the door shut. Yes, she should be able to make the choice, but that doesn’t mean all her choices are uncriticizable.

  19. Pat Johnson said

    chatblu: I am not making this up. Nor am I about to single out those sites in particular. My argument is based on the posters who are permitted to leave these comments unfiltered and unchallenged since it is presumed that the monitors have no issue with their position.

    Yet these same monitors and commentators are those who now stand shoulder to shoulder in their defense of the slurs aimed at Palin. My attempt is to display the hypocrisy of defending one and trashing another while railing against “sexism” to everybody else.

  20. carolinenotakennedy said

    Sorry Chatblu.

    I chose not to insert myself. I watched as others tried to say that this was wrong and they were crucified by the gang mentality and run off the board. It would have been fruitless to even try. Once the gang mentality rules there is no stopping it. Especially when the blog owner allowed the comments to stand and ended up sympathizing with the poster who originally called Michelle a gorilla.

  21. taggles said

    I agree with you Valhalla in many ways. Since I have criticized Palin’s political ideology, I seem not to be a friend to some of these self subscribed new wave feminists.

    This is dangerous trend. We must be able to criticize openly and freely one’s political ideology and actions. That is not sexism. But that seems to be the way the argument cookie is crumbling these days.

    Women who cannot support Palin politically but will defend against sexist attacks are being thrown down under the bus by these Palin supporters. All the while these same Palin supporters allow themselves to take part in sexist attacks against another woman (Michelle).

    Is your head spinning yet? LOL

  22. Pat Johnson said

    Valhalla: As I have stated, I am no fan of Michele. But again some of what you point out goes back to my same point. Where Michele was criticized for assuming the role of helpmate, Palin was praised for placing her career first.

    Each had made their choice based on what was suitable to them as women. That is as it should be since this has always been the goal of the feminist movement from its inception. But to praise one while at the same time finding fault with the other is duplicitous. Why should Michele be openly criticized in her decision while Palin was receiving praise for hers?

    Choice, as I see it, is dependent upon the person and not subject to which one holds more acceptance by outside forces. Each should be free to arrive at their own decision making without facing the derision of us on the sidelines.

  23. Pat Johnson said

    Jaysus, it must be something in the orange juice this morning when I find myself “defending” Michele Obama!

  24. carolinenotakennedy said

    Valhalla, I must disagree. These commenters most definitely do consider themselves feminists. They belong to one of the most feminist PUMA blogs.

  25. chatblu said

    Pat, I’m not certain how you inferred that I thought that you were “making this up”. That’s tantamount to calling you a liar, which I most emphatically did not. Just because I haven’t seen this does not mean that you did not. However, I think that the sites should be called out, along with the moderators (so-called) that permitted such conversations to ensue. CNK: I understand what you say, but who the heck would want to stay on such a board. Valhalla: Spot on.

  26. carolinenotakennedy said

    chatblu, I only lurk there to keep abreast of what is going on at PUMA blogs. They do some good things but…………………..
    I actually lurk at most PUMA blogs not just that one. Here at TW and also Cinie’s Place are where I feel comfortable enough to post.

  27. chatblu said

    CNK: I do my fair share of lurking at PUMA blogs, but I swear that I have never encountered any such nonsense as described. Perhaps I have just been sufficiently fortunate to have missed those days.

  28. Pat Johnson said

    These blogs originally were well intended in their inception. A refuge for those who had been mangled for supporting Hillary and found that their presence was not only unwanted, but were treated with such disrespect that their only choice was to leave. Their purpose, as they stated so often, was to protect and defend women from the sexists who were trashing Hillary day and night.

    But as the presidential race heated up the tone took on a different level. It became an almost daily tenor of a total subjugation in favor of Sarah Palin without any regard to her positions, but simply based on her gender alone. Women who called themselves “staunch feminists”, who strongly claimed to have fought and supported equal rights and were pro choice, were putting these issues aside in favor of a candidate who did not share these positions. It wasn’t enough to challenge the personal attacks leveled against her, which we all can agree were pretty egregious, it now had become the mission to defend her stance on everything.

    This is when the crude analogies crept in and found a home.

  29. murphy said

    Isn’t that kind of like blaming the editors of the newspaper when a racist or bigoted person writes a racist letter to the editor?

    But a newspaper doesn’t have to publish a racist letter, you might say. True, but blogs are different — approved commenters can make any kind of comment they want any time. All “letters to the editor” are instantly published on a blog.

    Who can expect or predict that an otherwise insightful commenter is suddenly going to haul off and call Michelle Obama a gorilla?? It’s happened on my site at least once. And it’s horrible. It’s like finding out that a new friend or a family member is actually a racist, in the ugly, ignorant way that good people deplore.

    On the few occasions when commenters have posted racist remarks about MO I’ve deleted them as quickly as possible — I’ve banned at least 2 people for making comments that are racist. I dont even like to read critical comments about MO because they almost always carry a whiff of that special blend of sexism/racism that Asian/Black/Hispanic women know so well.

    If, in the 300,000 or so comments on my blog there is still a comment or handful of comments that refer to Michelle Obama as a gorilla it is only because I cannot moderate every single comment that every single person posts. If I miss one and it’s brought to my attention I delete them immediately.

    I agree with the previous commenter here about what happens when a “gang” mentality prevails, very true. But it cuts both ways too. The commenter being defended even tho she made a racist comment was also being attacked by a “gang” of outraged commenters who were furious about the racist comment. That was a failure of moderation on my part. If I had been present on the blog (I believe I was either traveling or it was the middle of the night, or both) I would have been able to hopefully nip the gang-building in the bud, but I wasn’t and it escalated/devolved.

    But I think it’s unfair to blame the BLOGGER for the racist comment in the first place OR for the fact that other commenters come to the aid of their “friend” when a comment gang war starts.

    It’s definitely my fault for not scrutinizing the comment threads more carefully, but it’s a stretch to extend that blame to an accusation of me as a racist. I don;t think I’ve ever written a post about Michelle Obama. I think she, and especially her childen, are absolutely off limits. On several occasion, including in this comment right here, I’ve noted that Michelle Obama is particularly vulnerable to the ugly mix of racist/sexist attack and that it is utterly unacceptable. I;ve debated with my commenters about how hypocritcal it is for feminists to attack Michelle on her looks, her clothes, the shape of her body, her fashion sense, her mothering, etc. I even got into a public blog war with Hillbuzz in which I accused him of being blatantly sexist against MO and covering up for it by saying he “just can’t stand her” or “but she’s AWFUL.” That’s bullshit and it’s also sexist.

    I have no idea if you were talking about my blog, just assuming you are, and if not, your post definitely applies to my blog, so I hope you dont mind my weighing in with this long-ass comment.

    It makes me sad to see feminists who saw the sexism against Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin for what it was/is but still fall back on sexist attacks on MO. I dont know if that sort of attack is just so habitual that we only notice it when it’s being used against someone we “like.” But it’s wearying, so I think I agree with you Pat on the main point of your post. Though I also think First Lady IS a public role and it’s a shame to watch Michelle be a Stepford Wife.

    But, as a commenter on another site just wrote, women bashing is a 24/7/365 participatory national sport in this country and I just cant build up enough enthusiasm to take part. I plan to ignore Michelle Obama, other than to defend her against sexist attacks when they come up (also agreed with the commenters here who note that MO is treated with freaking KID GLOVES compared to ALL public women. How many “feminists” think it’s HILARIOUS to ridicule Nancy Pelosi’s face??).

    Thanks for letting me make this long response Pat.

    D.

  30. carolinenotakennedy said

    Murphy,

    Thanks for coming by and giving your response. I don’t think anyone thinks you are a racist.

    But you did allow those comments to stand even when you checked into your blog. Then in your next post, invited back the commenter who called Michelle a gorilla in the first place.

    Can you please explain your reasoning for that? And why didn’t you call back the people who were outraged and giving your above stated point of view in your absence?

  31. Appreciate your post, Pat.
    I’ve seen comments related to to the ones you’ve highlight, on our blog:

    “When Michele, a female, could be referred to as a “gorilla” while other commentators excused or applauded this obscenity, this same group could than shift into an outright defense of Palin without examining the dichotomy of this position.”

    Not all women’s consciousnesses are developed equally. I know the few times derogatory terms were used on our blog, they were deleted from comments as soon as possible, if not immediately. The comments were also countered by other women and men on the blog. In our case, it also turned out that trolls were masquerading as long gone members and posting hideous racist / sexist comments, then pasting them to anti-Puma blogs as a way to discredit us. The trolls have been long since banned, along with a few others who were unwilling to take a clue.

    Thanks for your post.

  32. SweetSue said

    Pat that was a very timely and thoughtful post. Thank you.
    I have never criticized Michelle Obama in a personal way and, if I’m ever tempted to do so, I will keep your wise words in mind.

  33. Valhalla said

    carolinenak – I can’t really comment if no one will indicate which blogs or which comments are being described. Not all commenters at feminist blogs are feminists themselves. And even feminists get caught up in the same misogynistic, patriarchal language and culture that we swim in. That doesn’t make it ok, but I think my point still stands that there is a difference between the anti-Michelle comments (most of whom are made by just plain folks) and the feminist bloggers whose claim to prominence is made off of being feminists.

    Pat — I think we have some disagreement on choice. I absolutely think that every woman should be able to choose how they want to live their lives. But defending the right to choose is not the same as approving of every possible choice. Different choices have different impacts; some are harmful and some are beneficial; most choices (pretty much any difficult choice in particular) are a mix of both things. Third Wavers (I’ll make a sweeping and probably somewhat unfair generalization here) are choosing to criticize Palin not on her politics, but on gender-based factors which, were they aimed at Michelle or any other hip-generation icon (witness the reverse — the recent age- and race-based attacks on Terry O’Neill) they would be screaming with indignation. I don’t have to accept their choices. I should be just as free to criticize things I don’t like, esp actions which serve to further harm women’s equality, as they are to choose to further misogyny.

    In fact, I’m criticizing myself for not speaking up when I could have. I’ve seen what you’re talking about, and for the most part all I ever did was try to change the subject. Those were my choices and they were not good ones.

    Oops, I’m late and I have to dash off — catch all you folks later!

  34. Oh! Hi, Murphy. Fancy meeting you here!
    Yes, you were travelling when the bulk of racist comments were being flung. I was able to catch some, as catch can. Others I delayed in deleting because other comments were trying to use the situation as a teachable moment to the raise awareness of the offending commenter.
    Did it work… not so much. :(

  35. Pat Johnson said

    murphy: This post was done in the hopes that commentators throughout the blogosphere, who have been so righteous in their defense of Palin and the sexism they defended her against, would also recognize that they have been as blatant in their own statements when lobbying volleys at other women themselves. Some of the comments have been openly critical and loaded with personal attacks.

    I purposely chose the commentators responses as for me it highlighted the hypocrisy of their outrage against anyone offering a different view from their own. Some sites automatically delete or scrub anything that varies from their personal viewpoint while others allow the commentators to form “tag teams” if a hint of dissension is displayed against the echo chamber. And this is primarily coming from women who perceive opposing viewpoints to somehow be seen as attacks against them personally which more often evolves into a catfight of the same proportions witnessed on unfriendly blogs.

    If women are seeking the opportunity to base the choices of their lifestyle on what is best for them at the moment, then why are we not encouraging that choice rather than bashing the person for making it? That was my argument in defending Michele for having the right to stay home while Palin was being hailed for choosing not to.

    Commentators have been correct in calling out the overwhelming personal attacks made against Clinton and Palin but are less interested in reviewing their own display of sexist comments when directed at women they do not admire as much.

    I will stand by my own view that the doublestandard has been applied.

  36. la-t-da said

    Pat, I deem you the queen of critical thinking. You hit the nail of “the irrationality of rationality” right on the head. Excellent piece. (But I am still not going to tell you the homosexual agenda.)

  37. janicen said

    Pat J., Good for you for calling out the commenters who have felt it necessary to critique Michelle’s style and wardrobe. I’ve read some of those comments, from commenters I had grown to respect, and cringed when I read them. I can understand commenting on Michelle’s fashion sense, but only in the context of calling out the kool-aid soaked media who continually report to us that Michelle has wonderful fashion sense and even showed up Carla Bruni when she was in Europe. Uh, no. I’m not going to go along with that. I have never criticized Michelle’s wardrobe, because I think it smacks of sexism to hold women to a different standard as men, but I will call out journalists who tell us that she has superior fashion sense. She clearly does not. That’s just kool-aid intoxication talking.

    I take exception to your statement, “I have no idea what led to this decision since what she said in her press conference was “fuzzy”at best, and even those reporters and talking heads, a lot smarter and more adept at reading through the lines than I am, are hard pressed themselves to establish a clear objective.”

    Now that smacks of the elitism we’ve heard from the MSM. Palin resigned because she was being dogged by frivolous ethics enquiries that were costing her state and her family a ton of money. Defending those complaints paralyzed the Governor’s ability to do what she was elected to do so she stepped down for the good of the state.

    You can google the text of her speech and she that’s what she said. I also take exception with your statement that reporters and talking heads are a lot smarter than you and more adept at reading through the lines. On the contrary, you can read her speech yourself and clearly understand what she’s saying. The reporters and talking heads are the ones trying to confuse the issue and interpret her possible motives. Palin wasn’t “fuzzy”, she was very direct. Saying that she was “fuzzy” or, as the MSM keeps saying, “rambling” is the meme that keeps being repeated by her detractors.

  38. Pat,
    I’m wondering if you would consider posting your post at the offending sites? I think it would be valuable and worthwhile for commenters at the blogs you allude to, to read.
    Thanks for your consideration.

  39. taggles said

    Dances, that’s a nice thought, but people would probably take it better coming from murphy herself, don’t ya think?

    And the same goes for other blog owners.

    They set the rules.

  40. Pat Johnson said

    DancesWithPumas: The intent was nothing more than raising the issue that we, as women, some having been around longer than others in this fight, begin to understand up front that we go nowhere when we indulge in the same tactics we decry.

    I am unable to thoroughly get my point across in saying that bashing women on a personal level because she does not fit our worldview is quite the opposite of placing her positions under the microscope without being accused of having “sexist” tendencies while the same group of detractors are indulging in the same rhetoric.

    I think the words “defend” and “support” are blending together and only adding to the confusion.

  41. murphy said

    good question CarolineKennedy, and I’ll try to answer it without hijacking this thread. Perhaps, if the answer is not satisfactory I can make a post about it at my place to discuss it further. I’m going to go back and check my posts from the week I think you are talking about to see how egregious I was.

    But regardless, I CAN tell you what was going through my head at the time.

    Puma PAC has a lot of commenters, many of whom have been blogging with us for over a year, daily. We get to know each other. We’ve learned A LOT about what it takes to stay together as a blogging community IN SPITE of the fact that as individuals we vehemently disagree on certain issues. But it’s been damn difficult. People have left angry and hurt; people have left and returned, left and returned, people have been banned (only a few, something that pleases me very much I must admit), and people have been HUMAN. They’ve lost their tempers, called each other nasty names, including SEXIST nasty names like “bitch” or “witch.”

    So, the first reason I didn;t unequivocally ban and condemn the comment and commenter in question (aside from the fact that I really WAS tired and traveling and distracted and needed to focus on my daughter at the time) was that I honestly LIKE the commenter in question. She’s a salty, smart, old lady in Miami who works her ASS OFF for political causes she believes in. Does that make the gorilla comment less racist? Of course not, but it does temper my judgment of HER.

    I do think of my blog as a place where people of differing backgrounds and viewpoints can learn/inform/debate with each other. As unbelievable as this may sound (I wouldnt have believed it if I hadnt experienced it personally on several occasions), there really ARE people who don’t believe/understand that saying a black woman looks like a gorilla is racist. They say, but the liberals called W a “chimp,” what’s the difference? Just like there are people who honestly don’t think calling a woman a “bitch” is a sexist insult. MANY feminists, of the Puma or Liberal or Conservative stripe don’t believe “bitch” is inherently sexist.

    I would rather talk with people like that than summarily silence them. Not ALL people who talk like that, of course. Those who are TRYING to goad or insult others with their racist/sexist comments should be banned immediately, because those people, crucially, KNOW what they’re saying is offensive– they are TRYING to offend, but Ladyhawke was NOT someone like that. What happened to her WAS sad, in my view. I dont condescendingly believe I or anyone has a DUTY to persuade her that “gorilla” is racist, but I hope we can, I really do.

    (assuming you are talking about Ladyhawke, not Mountainsong who also called MO a gorilla and was banned for it)

    24 hours a day for 400 days or so means A LOT happens among us who blog together. This whole question of supporting Palin as a woman but not as a candidate vs supporting her as both is simply the latest in a long line of VOLATILE issues to confront us as a group.

    I do NOT want to be an echo chamber. I think BOTH positions are valid and defensible even though I think my view (supporting her as both) is the correct one. ;-)

    SO, hope that provides some insight into why I responded as I did at the time.

    We have a LOT of work to do and I’ve always believed UNITY is the most essential part of our foundation. But it’s EASY to have unity with people you agree with 100% or close to 100%. For me, the challenge is achieving and SUSTAINING unity among people who DONT agree.

    Educating, persuading, reaching out to otherwise good, decent, smart people who are wrong about sexism or wrong about racism in one or more ways is a GOOD thing to do. I may have done it awkwardly, incompletely, or totally bungled the whole thing (I probably did), but that was my intention.

  42. garychapelhill said

    Long before the primaries were even over there was a prominent Hillary supporting blog that continually referred to Michelle as “Scoop Mouth” and that wasn’t in the comments, but in the posts themselves. I think that there is to some extent a derangement when it comes to all things Obama in the blogosphere. Personally I don’t really care too much about MO because she is not directly involved in policy making which affects me. I find her acceptance as a “fashion icon” and “role model” for women rather nauseating personally, but I don’t feel it rises to the level of bashing her about it. I do find her “date nights” in NY and Paris offensive because this country is suffering from a debilitating recession and it is just more of the sense of elitism that she shares with her husband. As far as sexism against her, it has been there on all blogs, even Obot blogs like the huffington post. I did a post about it last year when they did a spoof of magazine covers with her on them.

    http://garychapelhill.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/ladies-and-gentlemen-your-new-democratic-party/

    She was among other things depicted as both a lesbian and a gun toting gangster.

    Then there was this bit of reporting from the inauguration;

    As wide-eyes stared with awe anticipating the first on-stage victory lap from the next first family and, perhaps, the most symbolically historic election ever, I can’t lie, my moist eyes were a bit bewildered.Two words about Michelle’s dress: No likey.

    http://garychapelhill.wordpress.com/2008/11/06/1538/

    and finally, I recall Jack Cafferty’s wet dream about mommy michelle making me want to puke (and he’s her #1 fan!)

    Cindi Leive, the editor of Glamour magazine gushed, “Oh my god! The first lady has bare arms in Congress in February at night!” If she keeps it up, Seventh Avenue will soon stop making women’s clothes with sleeves.

    Ok, I admit it. When it comes to the first lady, I’m smitten.

    http://garychapelhill.wordpress.com/2009/03/03/jack-cafferty-is-a-sexist-perverted-old-man/

    I tend to be more sympathetic towards Palin, it seems, then my co-posters, just because she is the latest punching bag for a woman hating media, and it sickens me to the extent that I can’t even really pay attention to her politics (as apparently she can’t either–I believe 100% that she resigned because it was completely obstructing her ability to do her job). But to hear others suggest that Michelle isn’t on the receiving ed of it is disheartening. Sexism and misogyny are not directed at particular women, but all women, and if you refuse to accept that Michelle Obama could be part of that then you are just kidding yourself. I read an article recently ( I think on Politico) that was basically a warning to Michelle who had made some comment about becoming more involved in policy making with her husband. Their take on it: Don’t start acting like Hillary or you’ll get what’s coming to you. You don’t have to like Michelle ( or Palin for that matter), but you have to stand up against misogyny wherever it rears its head.

  43. Pat Johnson said

    In some instances I do not even consider that those statements were ever meant to be taken as racist or sexist coming from the commentator herself. I think the level of passion had arisen to such heights “that thinking before saying” was completely ignored.

    Again, what my illustration was attempting to underscore, and perhaps not as well as I would have liked, is that this cloak of protection afforded to Palin is not always awarded to other women by women for women. And when they fail to understand the difference in criticizing her for her viewpoints as opposed to her personal life is not “sexist” but polite inquiry, then I am unable to sit back and be labeled a sexist or troll because I raised the issue.

    I will defend anyone against personal attacks but I reserve the right to question policies from any politician who wants my support.

  44. carolinenotakennedy said

    Murphy,

    I guess I felt that you should have not been worrying so much about “UNITY” but that you should have taken those posters to school regarding the blatant sexism and racism.

    How will they ever learn if you give credence to their argument even if just by your silence or a teachable moment. I feel they needed to hear from you, the blog owner, how unacceptable that was.

    However we are only human and sometimes it takes hindsight to see where opportunity for real teaching was lost and to make sure others know exactly where your blog stands on the issue.

  45. Three Wickets said

    I’ve missed the gorilla posting, so not clear how Michelle is being compared to one. Sounds disgusting but I’d like to see the context. In any case, Michelle has never struck me as caring about the women’s movement, beyond paying it some occassional lip service. She did care about winning the WH and said some out-of-line, misogyny-laced things about Hillary during the primaries. I don’t recall her saying nasty things about Palin, but by that point she was well into the image transformation as a prospective Stepford First Lady. That change never struck me as her personal choice as a woman. Seemed more like stage managing from political operatives thinking about the next election. I personally prefer the real Michelle – the feisty, intelligent, sometimes complex woman, even while I disagree with her on many things. The image managed Michelle we see today is downright spooky. All that said, I have not come across the feminist lashings of her online, though I don’t venture much beyond the four or five PUMA sites I like. But on the whole, the media savaging of Palin (ever since the convention when she politically called Obama out in a way Hillary never did because she remained loyal to the party), that savaging of Palin and her family was much worse than anything Michelle had to endure, from Republicans or any so called feminists. The Dem’s sexist bashing of Palin exceeded the Repub’s sexist bashing of Michelle or Hillary during the campaign, imo. As a lifelong Democrat who believed the party fought for women’s rights, that was an eye opener for me, though difficult to watch.

  46. garychapelhill said

    3w I think that Michelle’s attitudes about feminism are irrelevant. Any sexism directed to her or any other woman is damaging to all women, so it must be exposed. And yes, she herself engaged in sexist behavior during the campaign and mostly was denounced by the Pumas for it (I’m thinking of the “taking care of my house” bullshit). It reminds me of the Perez Hilton issue recently being gay bashed by Will.i.am and having the gay community turn its back on him because he’s an asshole. It doesn’t matter, we still need to hold his bashers accountable because it affects all of us. Finally, I have never heard that “fuck” was a synonym for rape. Is that really the case??

  47. chatblu said

    The amazing thing is that the more that the MSM/liberal blogosphere and cable pundits bash Sarah Palin, the higher that her approval ratings soar. She is now at 71% approval amongst Republicans. I am not and never will be a Republican, but I admire them for standing by her in a way that Democrats failed to do with Hillary Clinton.

  48. chatblu said

    GCH: “For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge” would, I suppose, cover that.

  49. garychapelhill said

    politically, for Palin to emerge as a powerhouse in the GOP she will have to swing so far from me politically/ideologically that I will never be able to support her. But again her politics is irrelevant to rampant sexism in the media. and I don’t admire the republicans at all. lets not fool ourselves into thinking they are some bastion for women’s rights just because they weren’t as nasty in the past election as the Dems were. They pretty much just sat this election out because they knew they would lose to a hamster if the dems nominated one. One only has to think back to the Clinton years to get a true sense of the misogyny that exists in the GOP (just as it does in the democratic party)

  50. Pat Johnson said

    Attacking someone for public statements is totally acceptable. They can and should expect as much. But coming at them from the personal side, a la Hillary, Palin, and even Michele is not.

    In no way am I defending Michele in her statements that were called into question. But I make the argument that if you go after her on a personal level than you have no right to excuse your own behavior and point fingers at others who have done the same.

  51. Pat Johnson said

    chatblu: I would hazard a guess that the poll is based more on a sense of fairness toward her in how she has been personally portrayed rather than for her policies.

  52. garychapelhill said

    for unlawful carnal knowledge? I’m pretty sure that explanation of the term is just an urban legend. This sounds more likely to me:

    The Oxford English Dictionary states that the ultimate etymology is uncertain, but that the word is “probably cognate” with a number of native Germanic words with meanings involving striking, rubbing, and having sex

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck#Etymology

    the word for fuck in Spanish is “follar” which while not a cognate in the true sense, is close enough to make me feel like there is a common etymology of the word in various european languages, but that’s just a guess. I still don’t see how even the “unlawful carnal knowledge” refers to rape. any “carnal knowledge” outside of marriage back then would have been unlawful.

  53. chatblu said

    Oh, Gary, I’m not suggesting that the Republicans are a bastion for woman’s rights. I’m not certain that any party is these days. I’m simply pointing out that there is a direct relationship to media attacks and her polling numbers. This more suggests that they are tired to death of media (and blog) attacks and are willing to stand by a candidate that embodies their (and that is THEIR, not MY) beliefs. It is in and of itself admirable to stand by your beliefs.

  54. garychapelhill said

    I agree with that chatblu.

  55. taggles said

    Chatblu, Some people think that because she is a victim of sexism, which she is, of some of the grotesque kind, and because we don’t support her politically, we are not feminists.

  56. chatblu said

    Taggles, it is unnecessary to support her politically in order to be a feminist. I do not agree with her politically on much of anything. I will say that she is a person who is sure of her beliefs and stands by them.

  57. taggles said

    Chatblu, One of the best things I think could have come out of the last election was women of all stripes coming together to speak up against misogyny and sexism. Where the waters get muddied is when women who support Sarah politically start to attack women who do not support her politically and call them names and not true feminists. They are using feminism to try to silence criticism of Sarah’s political beliefs.

  58. murphy said

    well, personal insults aside (which are always unacceptable), I think you CAN use feminism to promote the idea that Palin should be supported, not just defended. Violet Sox does it eloquently — as does Lynette Long. Ruth Bader Ginsburg does it every day. In all of her calls for MORE WOMEN MORE WOMEN MORE WOMEN, she NEVER qualifies it with “More Women LIKE ME.” She was very clear about how the only reason she became the first woman tenured at Columbia Law School was because of Affirmative Action by RICHARD NIXON of all people.

    We need MORE WOMEN in the “places where decisions are being made” to use Ginsburg’s incisive phrase. It’s not like we’re talking about icing on the cake here. With Palin’s resignation there are now fewer than SIX women governors. Less than 17% of Congress is women. There should be, at ALL times, at least 15 women governors and 30% women congresspeople. Anything less IS de facto evidence of sexism and misogyny in the culture.

    Certainly, declining to support Palin as a candidate is NOT evidence of sexism, just like declining to support Obama was or is de facto evidence of racism. But the argument can be made, and I intend to keep making it ;-) , that supporting Palin as a candidate is a proactively feminist act.

  59. chatblu said

    Taggles, I have relatives on my mother’s side who would vote for anyone with an Irish surname regardless of political party or belief systems. I have a Jewish friend who assures me that her parents did the same with jewish politicians. Their fervently held hope was that if a sufficient number of elected officials were of their ethnic group that their lives would be the better for it. Has it worked? I suppose to a degree that it has. Will we do this as women for our own betterment? Damned if I know. There are some that believe that electing any female to any position will make it easier for other female candidates down the road. Will it? Again, damned if I know. I’m now in my sixties, with more years behind me than ahead. I’m not certain if I will ever live to see true gender equality.

  60. garychapelhill said

    taggles, one of the problems with that is that it is very difficult to separate fact from fiction when it comes to Palin’s political beliefs. The way she is described in much of the media and blogosphere would lead a reader with no detailed information to believe that she is just left of Hitler when it comes to ideology. I don’t believe that in this past election she was more than a moderate republican (the mccain/palin ticket was among the most moderate republican tickets I’ve seen in my lifetime–perhaps on par with Dole/Kemp–and they lost big time too) They only time these tickets seem to make it is when the hardcore right wing sits the election out, as they did in both 96 and 08. If she is to become a serious contender in 12 I think she will have to harden her rhetoric to be more in line with the right wing base, and at that point she will be unacceptable to me as a candidate. But as far as her conduct in the 08 election, she was barely distinguishable from her Democratic counterparts.

  61. lililam said

    “In some instances I do not even consider that those statements were ever meant to be taken as racist or sexist coming from the commentator herself. I think the level of passion had arisen to such heights “that thinking before saying” was completely ignored”

    I agree with this statement and believe that it is “most” not “some”, as the disgust w/obama and the hypocricy shown by both him and his wife vis a vis Hillary was beyond what we could tolerate. I am not one who joined in name calling, but I could understand the emotion involved, although the words used remeinded me of some of the mean girls in junior high. Michele became a caricature, an easier target perhaps, for our righteous anger. She did nothing to mollify these feelings, of course, but when it comes to misogyny, that is not a requisite, I suppose. We were burned in this election and had little outlet for our anger and disgust. It is bound to come out some how, and the Michele bashing was emblematic of some of this, I am sure.

  62. garychapelhill said

    murphy, I agree with you to some extent, but just wanting “more women” is not a very prudent course to take when supporting political candidates. What about people like Sally Kern who said:

    Studies show, no society that has totally embraced homosexuality has lasted for more than, you know, a few decades. . .

    I honestly think it’s the biggest threat our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam. . .

    I’m sorry, but I’d vote for just about any person, man or woman, over her any day, and it has nothing to do with her being a woman. She’s just a foul bigot.

  63. chatblu said

    Dear Sally, what about the ancient Romans and Greeks? They made it well past the “few decade” marks, and their civilizations were not brought down by homosexuality.

  64. Claudy said

    I don’t recall nor did I see the ‘gorilla’ comments aimed at MO. If I had I would have decried those remarks whether emanating from a blogger or blog commenters.

    Agree with Three Wickets reply (upstairs) in all respects.

    I think MO was given the kid glove treatment once the WH nomination was secured and the WH image makers were in control. Once safely in the background, folks backed off.

    Axelrod made sure we viewed the First Family as the Kennedy’s with a ‘tan’ – that goal has been achieved. One would hope that MO – the Stepford First Wife as Three Wickets puts it – would at some point feel constrained by her role in this play book and might dare to show us some of her passion for something beyond tending the WH garden and baring her well-exercised by-ceps in public.

    In all of this – no woman is safe regardless of party or what personal choices they make in their lives from disparaging sexist attacks when they are in the public eye. As a culture, we seek to provide safe communities and schools for our children, I wonder if we might find a way to provide a safe harbor for women?

    The message I get from what we’ve witnessed in this election cycle re how Hillary, Palin and Michelle have been variously treated is: Stay Home! Shut Up! and Sit Down!

    The worst part is that Hillary and Michelle have been marginalized by DEMOCRATS! And, it could be said Palin’s resignation came as a result of partisan Dem “gangs” gone wild.

    We have to keep standing up for what’s right; and, sexism and misogyny ain’t right!

    p.s.- The teenage girl in me says MO might’ve died her shoes to match her gloves – or vice versa – for Inauguration Day ensemble; but I prolly should leave that comment on a fashion blog.

  65. taggles said

    Gary, Palin even in the election was anti gay marriage. She is not ashamed to say it. She supported and AK constitutional amendment making marriage between a man and a woman. She vetoed the same sex benefits bill (which wanted to deny benefits), because the supreme court said it was unconstitutional and even in her veto of it, she said she disagreed with the courts ruling on same sex benefits.

    Sarah Palin belongs to feminist for life, she favors overturning roe v. wade. She just gave a speech at the Indiana Right to Life conference.

    I do believe she positioned herself as more moderate for votes, but her words are clear on abortion. She believes the feminist movement is to protect the youngest sisters in the womb.

    I can’t get past these positions with her and these are some of the reasons I cannot give her my support politically.

    I know I’m going into a rehash of previous threads on this blog and don’t really want to do that. But want you to know where I am coming from.

  66. la-t-da said

    Posts have been allowed to stand, on many blogs, since the primary about Pelosi. Her face lifts, just to name but one example. I saw a few that pointed out the hypocrisy while engaged in the battle to defend Hillary against misogyny. Troll and obot started long ago.

    Pelosi’s betrayal, or better yet, down right participation in allowing sexism to stand, with her own “silence” was what stabbed the deepest. It is actually the “silence” that has always troubled me the most.

    Gang mentality is indeed threatening, but is also a tactic to silence the ones that have the courage to speak out. Gang mentality is easy to participate in. Indeed you have the support of a gang to participate in behavior that you might not risk to do on your own.

    With that said, I say, “Better late than never”…for those who are willing to dig deep and self-reflect and educated their blog members into the danger of gang mentality. This subject matter has to be addressed to move into the next phase of furthering any movement. I see that next phase as understanding and educating others on the difference of supporting and defending.

  67. murphy said

    I would not vote for her Gary. I’d vote AGAINST her. Thankfully, very very few women (or men) are that awful.

    I tend to agree 1000% with what you write and think you are SO good at articulating feminist principles.

    Two things: the “I won’t vote for her SIMPLY because she’s a woman” is a canard. It’s a false premise. No woman in politics (excepting a few random freaks like the one you mentioned) who makes it to the state-wide or national level is unqualified. Not one. Women have worked their ASSES OFF to become qualified and competent on EXACTLY the same level as men in politics. Law degrees, judgeships, CEO experience, local political experience, etc. So when I advocate voting FOR women every time without exception (again, the exception of FREAKS goes unsaid) it is BECAUSE the qualification/competence issue has already been established.

    We either want gender parity (or something even approaching it in this preposterous climate) or we don’t. To get it, we HAVE to vote for women.

    Excellent points about Irish Americans in politics Chatblu. Did their election help the Irish American community? Hell Freaking YES it did and still does. My grandparents would have voted for JM Curley even if he had been indicted for murder. Irish politicians in Boston changed the world for Irish immigrants. there is absolutely no question about that.

    women can do the same thing.

  68. murphy said

    i forget what the other thing was.

  69. garychapelhill said

    taggles, and how is any of that out of alignment with most democrats, even women democrats? In the VP debate, her answer was no different than Biden’s when it came to gay marriage. I also think that some of your information is not entirely free of the bias towards her in the media, and that is my point. I have repeatedly said myself that I would not be able to support her politically, yet you continue to bring out talking points that I see coming from the same people who accuse her of being a crazy witch doctor, christianist, homophobe, and I just dont’ buy it. I don’t believe anything I read about her.

  70. taggles said

    It’s not any different gary and I don’t support them either. And I call out their sexism.

    Isn’t that what this has been all about. Fighting for our principles.

    Sarah Palin holds none of our principles, yet she is a victim of misogyny. I will defend her, I can’t politically support her.

  71. Pat Johnson said

    murphy: Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are essentially saying that a woman, any woman regardless of where she positions herself overall on the issues, has your full support based solely on gender? Help me to understand this.

    Most of us have expressed severe disappointment in the fact that so far Obama has yet to step to the plate in supporting gay rights issues or FOCA as he promised in the primaries. Even some of his staunchest supporters have felt let down as a result of his inability to act on what they perceived as his position on equal rights.

    Yet in following your trajectory of having a female who has openly stated that she is in favor of overturning Roe v Wadem and returning those rights over to individual states, is an issue that you are comfortable with? Obama may have proven less than worthy of carrying out what he originally proclaimed, but she is making her position known up front with little pushback from feminist blogs who prefer to put words and actions into her mouth when she has just declared the opposite.

    As for her position on gay rights, do you think for one minute she would be anywhere near championing that cause if she is not in favor of the right to choose based on her own membership in a pro life group who sees little if any reason for a woman to seek an abortion?

    Does it not bother you in the least that she comes across no differently in her religious pronounciations as did Bush who declared he sought out “God’s advice” in going to war? That she herself has been quoted that the war itself is “God’s will”? I am not clear on the rationale attached to some of the frequent mention of God liberally expressed on many of her statements. Isn’t this a blending together of church and state which most liberals vehemently oppose?

    And isn’t that outright and uncritical support any different than what we experienced last year when challenging those who blindly followed Obama without seriously questioning his ideals? I am having difficulty wrapping my head around this total absolution of a candidate who does not come close to offering what it is we seek judging from the words elicited from her own mouth.

  72. taggles said

    And atleast listen to her own words and her own political actions and stances.

  73. garychapelhill said

    murphy, I agree that Kerns is an extreme, but let’s look at someone more “mainline” like my previous senator, Elizabeth Dole. She was a Bush loving, war mongering, abortion hating, WOMAN senator. I would have gladly voted for any male democrat running against her. Fortunately I didn’t have to make that choice as her opponent was also a woman. BUT Hagan became the nominee by using not so friendly tactics to defeat her openly gay male opponent in the primary (who, btw is much more progressive than she is and would not (imo) have caved on the health care issue as she seems to be doing). Would you have voted for Dole if Jim Neal had been the democratic nominee?

  74. garychapelhill said

    and I forgot to add, Dole is extremely qualified, having had a long, distinguished career in public service.

  75. helenk said

    I guess I will get jumped all over for this comment, but so be it.
    I call michelle obama Meeesheellle and do this because of HER statement when she found out that they backtrack was some relation to Dick Chaney. Her comment was ” give me some”.
    On a post a couple of days ago Caption this, my comment was a take off on the Kennedy trip to Paris.
    Damn she is going to make me say ” I am the man that brought meechelle to Moscow” and her clothes are ugly.
    When John Kennedy was in Paris with Jackie that was his opening in a speech. Jackie Kennedy was a fashion icon and always looked good. Meechelle does not even though she has designers who would love to dress her and make her look good just for the publicity. She does not make use of what would make her look good. My comments have nothing to do with race. I do not think they are sexist. If the president did not dress well I would make the same comment for the same reasons

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  76. murphy said

    I’m admittedly trying to push the envelope with this Pat. No, I dont give ANY politician my uncritical support. Politicians and candidates we support deserve and need our criticism. That’s why we write letters, call them, and sometimes vote them out. Of course I am critical of Palin’s positions I dont support.

    But that wont stop me from voting for her — barring some change she makes in the future that is utterly out of bounds. In which case I’ll vote for Cynthia McKinney, a woman whose political views i disagree with probably even MORE than I do Palin’s.

    I dont think she HAS called for Roe v Wade being overturned. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Actually, I dont know of ANY statewide or national woman politician who calls for that. I’m with Gary; the depiction of Palin as a christianist freak is a caricature and competely untrue. Palin’s view of gay marriage is NOT mine; but it IS the same view as obama and bidens, and to a degree Hillary Clinton’s.

    I cant stand Pelosi, but I cant stand Harry Reid either. I’d vote for her though if i were a Californian. Luckily, I’m in liberal Massachusetts. I dream daily that Martha Coakley will go Indy and run against Devil Patrick.

    But yup — vote FOR women, even those who have some political views you dont agree with.

    that’s my story, and I’m sticking with it.

    I want parity. I want a woman in the White House. Electing more women, of DIFFERING views, will get us there.

    Unity among women voters CAN make it happen.

  77. garychapelhill said

    and incidentally, I DID vote for Neal in the primary over Hagan. I don’t think that makes me an anti-feminist.

  78. murphy said

    gary, yup I’d have voted for Liddy Dole.

    Until the liberal Democratic party starts SERIOUSLY courting and developing women candidates it’s their OWN DAMN FAULT if there is no plausibly democrat woman to run against Dole.

    we keep pretending to ourselves that we can ignore gender and just vote the “candidate.” We can’t. Sexism and misogyny are used to bash every political woman back into the parlor every damn time — from Ferraro to Clinton to Palin to Napolitano (just WHY was she never groomed to be a presidential candidate? the answer is NOT pretty).

    we delude ourselves that a “good” man is better than a “bad” woman candidate. baloney. the “good” men never turn out to be, and the “bad” women are usually holograms.

  79. murphy said

    gary, me neither. Like I said above, NOT supporting a woman candidate is NOT evidence of sexism or anti-feminism, of course not.

    My argument is that voting FOR women (of all political stripes) IS a pro-actively feminist act.

  80. garychapelhill said

    I’m sorry but I don’t see how supporting Elizabeth Dole could be considered a feminist act, unless you are some kind of anarchist or something (and who knows, maybe ya are murph ;) ) because to me it seems like what you are doing is just blindly jabbing at the patriarchy rather than making a precision attack. I respect your commitment to your ideals and would never tell you who to vote for, just adding my 2 cents.

  81. taggles said

    Gary, i am not accusing sarah of being a christofacist fundamentalist or anything the obots have decried of her using sexism. These are her words. If you don’t want to believe them, I can understand your reasoning for that. But I tend to give quite a bit of credence to something when I hear it directly from the horses mouth. She is a pro life candidate. She is an anti gay marriage candidate. She has stated this herself umpteen times. These are not just her personal opinions, listen for yourself. When someone states they are in favor of overturning Roe V. Wade. I got a problem. Please read la-t-da’s post about tolerance to find info on her anti gay marriage stance.

    She would support an amendment to outlaw abortion even in cases of rape and incest:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEN-c0zRH1c

    Roe V. Wade you think it should be reversed and that states should be able to decide that issue. Yes, she does.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKZ3618TZq0

    Visiting Seneca Falls:

    At one point, Palin said she shared with Susan B. Anthony a desire for the protection of women. “For me, that includes our youngest sisters, girls in the womb,” she said.

    http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/06/alaskan_gov_sarah_palin_visits.html

    Here is Sarah at the Indiana Right to Life Banquet in April 2009.

  82. Pat Johnson said

    So let me see if my what I am interpreting here is correct.

    Reviewing a candidate by reading and listening to what they say, how they present it, and weighing their statements against my own criteria in what I feel best represents my issues and beliefs, is unacceptable unless I agree wholeheartedly with yours. (speaking in general)

    My own critical thinking on how I approach or decide for myself is only deemed appropriate if my comments completely mirror yours. Otherwise my opinion, which is all this is in the long and short of it, is not worthy of consideration as it is not a reflection of the group.

    But your opinion, again addressing this in general, is the only one needing to be heard and evaluated as it is reflective of the group and there is no room for dissent.

  83. Claudy said

    Murphy-
    I’m on board with the ‘more women’ movement – Waiting for the “perfect” woman will keep us in the mud mired in continuous loop arguments such as the ones applied to Hillary, Palin and others.

    It is not acceptable to not allow women flaws and to be as mediocre as ANY man. People can elect politicians using whatever criteria they choose but there is wisdom is setting the goal of simply INCREASING representation of women, by women.

    In breaking with Dems this year, I find I care less and less about standing firm on the Dem plank with its lip service to us, and more about voting for qualified, stable, authentic, straight shooters like Palin. (I’d vote for her in a heartbeat if given the chance!)

    Do men ask themselves when voting for a man – oh I can’t, because he MIGHT have an affair in office and disappoint me? No! But people routinely go through a far more rigorous checklist when it comes to voting for female candidates. What if she’s going through menopause? What if she’s distracted by her kids? Or has no kids and isn’t maternal enough?

    We need to make it easier for women to run for office and stay in office. We need to make it easier for voters to understand how vital it is to balance our culture w/ more women’s voices. Right now, we are novelties – anomalies in the voting process. We need to “normalize” the election process to include more women — from ALL quarters.

  84. garychapelhill said

    taggles you can be really condescending sometimes. why are you badgering me after I have repeatedly said I would not be able to support her politically?

  85. helenk said

    Gary
    You could never pay me enough to vote for Elizabeth Dole.
    When she was Secretary of Transportation she had stock in a company called Blue Ribbon.
    Conrail had to get out of the passenger business by congressional law. I watched friends I worked with lose their jobs.
    Blue ribbon Co took over those jobs and paid minimum wage instead of a living wage.
    As Secretary of Transportation she should have divested her stock.

    3Wickets
    If you are still here the term deadheading means to travel without working.
    example: a conductor works a train from point A to point B. he still has to get back to point A. He can work a train back from point B to point A or he can deadhead back.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  86. BeMindful said

    Hi Gary,

    This has turned out to quite a discussion. Yes, the “f” word is an old English word, referring to sexual intercourse that literally means to take unfair advantage of, i.e., rape. In its ubiquitous slang usage, it carries an aggressive connotation that doesn’t have much to do with a respectful, loving relationship.

    The word “balls” is another matter. Sometime ago, I read an anecdote in MS magazine about Norman Mailer. It seems Norman said that in order to write well, you had to have balls. A feminist reporter replied, “And in what color of ink do you dip them, Norman?”

    The Internet has justifiably been referred to as an open sewer. It often reminds me, though, of a horde of immature youth who have temporarily escaped from adult supervision and proceed to use all of those naughty words their parents have forbidden them to use at home.

  87. murphy said

    pat, certainly not. It is utterly un-American to tell someone who to vote for. FAR be it from me to tell people who to vote vote for. I am advocating a political position that you and EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD is free to disagree with, criticize, ignore, whatever.

    “Reviewing a candidate by reading and listening to what they say, how they present it, and weighing their statements against my own criteria in what I feel best represents my issues and beliefs” is EXACTLY what a citizen SHOULD do in a democracy.

    My point is that we do not live or vote in a free democracy. We live and vote in a SEXIST democracy. Voting FOR women, proactively, is, according to my argument, an effective and valid way to undermine and eventually eliminate the sexism inherent in our democracy.

    If you disagree with my argument you should state your disagreement as it applies to my argument, not to your presumption about what I think. Or ignore me, LOL!

    Gary, yes, I do see it as jabbing at the patriarchy, though not blindly. And sadly, if it’s just me doing it then it is very tiny jab. But a BUNCH of us jabbing together could actually tip the sexist thing over. So that Napolitano COULD be a candidate in a free, un-sexist Democracy, in which a woman (or man’s) sexual orientation is irrelevant and a woman’s looks is irrelevant.

    And sadly, I dont think precision attacks are possible at this point. To me anyway, it’s like trying to hold back Lake Pontrachain with “precision” sandbags.

  88. garychapelhill said

    hey BM! I’m still not sure I agree. most of the use of fuck is in a non sexual manner anyway, such as “WTF??” I tend to still think that the acronym explanation is pretty weak as far as a genuine etymology. I would lean toward the explanation from OED. But that’s a debate for a linguistic blog I guess. I agreewith you as far as the term “to have balls” is concerned. The premise is that men are stronger than women, and it is inherently sexist. It reminds me when I was a kid growing up in the south and hearing such phrases as “that’s mighty white of you” to describe someone who has done something nice for you. its just blatantly racist, and thankfully has been pretty much shamed out of existence except for some hard core racist hold outs.

  89. Pat Johnson said

    I have voted for women candidates in the past, mostly on a local level since so few were available on the state or national at the time.

    My support for Hillary was based on her qualifications and years of service on behalf of many different causes and she proved her worth as a candidate as far as that was concerned. The fact that she was a female was merely a secondary consideration but packed with excitement as well.

    I do not support Palin but this is strictly based on her positions and her lack of preparation. But as I have come to see from the comments from other blogs, my position is unwarranted as it appears that in not supporting her possible candidacy I have lost my way. Issues do matter to me. They always have and I am unwilling to gloss that over in favor of backing a candidate with whom I am in disagreement regardless of race or gender.

    If this is considered as PDS then I have no way of negating it.

  90. taggles said

    Gary, I am not being condescending or badgering. I thought I was providing you some information you might not have known. I understand you won’t support her. I was addressing this comment to me:

    how is any of that out of alignment with most democrats, even women democrats? In the VP debate, her answer was no different than Biden’s when it came to gay marriage. I also think that some of your information is not entirely free of the bias towards her in the media, and that is my point.

    It lead me to believe that you thought I was just using left wing sexist talking points against her. And I wanted to be clear where I was coming from. That is all.

  91. garychapelhill said

    well there’s no getting around the fact that one of the main reasons Palin continues to be a contender is because of support of women. She is tapping into something that is genuinely feminist in nature if not pure in its ideology.

  92. Pat Johnson said

    If I can reduce my original objective in posting this essay, it was merely this:

    If one sees fit to call another woman “fugly” than that poster is in no position to cry foul at the use of “sexism” when they themselves have been guilty of the same.

    I am unable to make it any simpler than that.

  93. Pat Johnson said

    gary, I see it less as feminism and more as transference.

  94. garychapelhill said

    Pat I think you made your point, and did so as eloquently as usual. While Palin may take the spotlight, Michelle Obama has also been a victim of sexism if for no other fact than ALL women are subjected to it, and what palin, or hillary, or even michelle experience is no different from what every woman in our world experiences regardless of the power that they wield or their alignment with powerful men. sexism and misogyny are ubiquitous to the extreme.

  95. garychapelhill said

    maybe so pat, but I think even right wing women with archaic views of gender roles support palin to some extent because of some deep seeded feminist principles of fairness, whether they themselves would even admit to it or not.

  96. Sentinel said

    Women can’t unite, that is part of your DNA, you tear each other out then wonder why none of your gender become President or Vice President of this country. As a man, watching women in politics, I’ve seen ugliness your gender spewed against other women, be it Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin. There were two great women last year (Palin & Hillary), who tore them down? Women. Many of us gents supported Hillary & Palin but women outnumbered us; maybe because a lot of women out there has the mentality their own gender can’t lead this country. No one could put down a woman worse than another woman. I’ve heard women calling Sarah & Hillary derogatory words, not thinking they’re describing their own womanhood.

    How can women in this country expect us men to support all of you when you ladies are busy tearing each other down? You wanted equal rights, yet you never treat your own gender with the same equality you demand from us. As a father of two grownup girls, I taught them never to listen to bitter women who put them down, they can do whatever they want, achieve their goals they set for themselves if they do not listen to other women who will drag them down. I supported Hillary & Sarah last year, they were honorable women and smart. Men like me, who had been around the block too many times know what is a good leader when they see one.

  97. la-t-da said

    Massive rhetoric, or what became rhetoric, in my observation, flew around in the GE about “We own our own vote.” Damn, right we do. But what I experienced, as well as others, who had the courage to join PUMA (which was initially deemed “Party Unity My Ass”) in the first place were hounded if the protest vote they “chose” was for a “third party cannot” or “not to vote top of the ticket”.

    We have the same potential again to judge others for “lack of courage” or what ever was thrown out in judgment, if people are hounded by the gang mentality that promotes just voting gender not matter what. This judgmental position, and hounding, or maybe even driven agenda, has the potential to be the same, even those that promote looking at political positions rather than just gender.

    It is going on, and it cannot or should not be denied. All one has to do, in my opinion, is look back at the GE to see some of the same behaviors and lines in the sand is going on now.

  98. la-t-da said

    …”third party candidate”…

  99. madjuana said

    Here’s my gist of this post: incredulity that the 21st century third wave femminists have a fractured sense of solidarity with women, i.e. they are not women-identified women. As a second wave feminist I came up through the streets so to speak, not academia. We were crude fighters, tough, homegrown, many of us lesbians of many colors and styles. We were joined by common threads that created strong words against the patriarchy. We were not totally defined by male-centered women’s issues like abortion or same sex marriage. We were different and we didn’t care about assimilating, cracking glass ceilings, having a career and kids, too. Those issues were a part of the tapestry but not always the main scene of action. We were radical & intelligent at the same time, we had our consciousness raised on a regular basis, and talk about scrubbing the comments on these blogs, we were scrubbing our hearts and souls, losing our faith, questioning everything, eradicating the derogatory & destructive male pov to make room for women’s voices. I see now a watered-down version of feminism overall with the notable exception, for whom my heart leaps: PUMAs lead the way. I know there’s plenty more to say and connections to make and I’m just noticing this interesting and incredible moment as if a wave is just beginning to form from these times, probably the most misogynistic since the mid-century.

  100. la-t-da said

    I mangled that last post to hell. Sorry.

  101. chatblu said

    Gary, that’s true but all criticisms of a woman cannot be considered sexist, per se. I applaud Michelle Obama’s work with the DC homeless, but I think that working at a homeless shelter in Lanvin trainers is somewhat tacky in its ostentatiousness. I don’t think that is sexist. I would say the same of a male politician who appeared in the masculine equivalent of same.

  102. garychapelhill said

    I take issue with the characterization of the “same sex marriage issue” as “male centered”. I am not sure what you mean, but I hear similar rhetoric from Obama supporters who paint those who fight for gay civil rights as mainly gay white men who are more interested in protecting their status as white men than their “gayness”. That sort of rhetoric is divisive imo and just not true. It is a bigoted backlash to a minority seeking its full equal civil rights. Of course for the obots it is the same tactic as always–paint obama detractors as racist. But I don’t think that it in anyway detracts from feminist ideals.

  103. la-t-da said

    Her position was not the same as Bidens, Gary. Yes, both of them are not for gay marriage. But as I pointed out the other day, being “tolerated” was not spouted by Biden. That is a very different mindset.

    If you listen again to the VP debate, you can hear, in my experience, a reasoning against gay marriage or even civil unions, for that matter, that is based up a personal and religious stance, not a political one.

  104. chatblu said

    Gary, I agree, and I believe that smae-sex equality is inextricably bonded to female equality.

  105. garychapelhill said

    chatblu I agree. I don’t think criticism of her on the basis of her actions or words is sexist, but as I suggested above, there has been criticism beyond that, and attritubitons that are plainly sexist. It is all over the place. I don’t know if anyone read that politico article about Palin that reported that CNN’s Rick Sanchez pondered whether Palin made her “crazy decision” to resign because she was pregnant. That is just over the moon crazy sexist and it is totally accepted as mainstream. But I would not be surprised to see the same people use that same sort of reasoning regarding Michelle’s actions.

  106. la-t-da said

    “Women can’t unite, that is part of your DNA, you tear each other out then wonder why none of your gender become President or Vice President of this country.”

    What is part of our DNA? That we can’t unity? Or we tear each other down? That is sexism right there.

  107. carolflowery said

    If you havent heard Palin’s lawyer discuss the issues she
    is having to deal with, then maybe you should. I truly believe
    the same bloggers for Obama during the campaign will never stop
    working Palin. They have made it their business to ruin her ever
    since August 29th, 2008. Wow, that seems like a short time ago.
    Michelle Obama has not run for anything. I think comparing her
    in any way shape of form as far as treatment is neither here nor
    there. Most women who have worked hard have had some difficulty
    with climbing up.
    My bottom line in politics is always policy. I dont agree with any
    policy of Obama’s as of yet. And even when he seems to be able to
    get anything he wants, we always hear the next day or week why it
    hasnt worked and we must be paitient. I am patient. But, to me
    when you can get thugs out of chicago to run for the white house and
    that includes rahm and emanuel, you better be very vigilant on what
    they say and do.

  108. SHV said

    Wow..Pat Johnson’s threads sure draw a crowd.

  109. garychapelhill said

    la-t-da, I watched that debate and found their stances indistinguishable. I don’t say that in praise of Palin’s position, but rather as an indictment of the Democrats who are “supposed” to be our allies. I have said repeatedly that I don’t expect the republicans to do one damn thing for gay rights. They never promised to. But when the “fierecest” advocate for gay rights sounds just like the candidate whose party is openly hostile to us, that is worth noting.

  110. Pat Johnson said

    What caused me to present this essay was a result of a comment I posted over the weekend at a feminist blog. In discussing the resignation, and the questions that arose over her reasons to do so, the common theme was that she was a victim of misogyny and this had to be the one and only reason why she chose to stand down.

    In suggesting that perhaps she may have other considerations for this action, possibly based more on her own ambitions rather than just the personal attacks, I was almost immediately surrounded by a chorus of supporters who would brook no other reasoning.

    I was labeled a troll, a sufferer of PDS, an Obot, a flamethrower, an obstructionist, an elitist, a fantacist, a racist, a moron, a lightweight, all because I posed a question that did not fit the narrative.

    This brought to mind other comments that I have seen floating around out there in defense of Palin where personal attacks made against the poster and other personal attacks against MO were in abundance. Yet these same “defenders” took issue with the “sexism” of anyone rising up to offer a difference of opinion.

    It smacked to me of a certain brand of hypocrisy that I have witnessed from afar.

  111. garychapelhill said

    I think men and women have the same DNA don’t they?

  112. la-t-da said

    “Wow..Pat Johnson’s threads sure draw a crowd.”

    Yes they do, SHV, but Murphy also posted this thread on her blog, for those over there to join in the debate. Good for you, Murphy.

  113. helenk said

    http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=331943545489207

    Do you think this would ever happen?

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS’

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  114. garychapelhill said

    Pat, that doesn’t make any sense. What is wrong if she did resign because of political ambitions? what’s wrong with that? Male politicians do it all the time. to me saying that is sexist is in itself sexist.

  115. garychapelhill said

    pat, I meant their criticism of you doesn’t make sense. sorry if my thought was unclear.

  116. la-t-da said

    I have no issue, with you noting that, Gary. I still have issue that facts, as well as subjective experiences, are not fully being considered. Gay people surely know the old “tolerate” and “hate the sin, love the sinner” stance.

  117. garychapelhill said

    LOL Helen, I think you just made my point for me :)

  118. la-t-da said

    “What is wrong if she did resign because of political ambitions? what’s wrong with that?”

    If you need more experience and intend to campaign on having experience then one resigns thus not gaining more experience in the current position they are in, that is what is wrong with that.

  119. garychapelhill said

    exactly la, She was using dog whistles that we are all familiar with. It was worth noting that the Democrats were using those same tactics. Which is worse Palin saying she “tolerates” gays, or Obama implicitly endorsing “reparative therapy” by campaigning with Donnie McClurkin? As far as I know there isn’t any groundswell of support for palin in the gay community as there was for Obama. And I don’t really see criticism of her from gay people based on the fact that she holds bigoted views on gay issues, but the same old crap about her being a bimbo and a hick. All at the same time ignoring Obama’s homobigotry (until recently that is).

  120. SHV said

    That is sexism right there.
    ********
    Ah..just finished reading all of the comments. “Sexism” seems to be used as the term when the “attack”, criticism, etc. is gender related. Is it still sexism when a woman is the attacker???

  121. la-t-da said

    “As far as I know there isn’t any groundswell of support for palin in the gay community as there was for Obama.”

    Obama was voted in by the cult of personality, just like GW was the first time. (The guy you want to have a bear with.) Politicians know full well that many people vote for them for this reason alone. They play on it and it is a tactic. I see Sarah using this tactic as well.

  122. madjuana said

    boiling down equal rights for same sex couples into the catchall “same sex marriage” is male-centered because marriage is a patriarchal institution and that’s not what’s being asked for anyway. Partnership benefits, equals rights, anything but “marriage,” a term successfully used to somehow scare the public rather than instill understanding.

  123. DancesWithPumas said

    2009 JULY 9
    taggles PERMALINK
    Dances, that’s a nice thought, but people would probably take it better coming from murphy herself, don’t ya think?
    And the same goes for other blog owners.
    They set the rules.
    ————
    I think Murphy has addressed the issue until she, and others, are blue in the face. I think others could benefit from Pat’s post, even just as a courtesy to the blogs Pat is citing. I don’t believe Pat’s points would fall on deaf ears, even if some of the examples are months old.

  124. garychapelhill said

    I guess my questions wasn’t as clearly rhetorical as I intended. My point is that Obama basically did the same thing hopping up the ladder without getting experience and he was applauded for that. I didn’t mean to make a judgement on whether it is the “right” thing to do or not.

  125. Sentinel said

    My comment was sexist? I have two daughters who are feminists to the nth combining all of you here. I raised my two daughters alone, I taught them how to do their battles. Their feminism is not done in words, they do it in action, they’re movers not talkers – they’ve learned it from their old man. They were labeled by some women out there as lesbians, I taught them balls to the wall. Maybe a lot of you has a lot to learn what real sexism is all about. You don’t recognize it even if hits your eyes. Don’t look outside, look inside your own home.

  126. garychapelhill said

    well then, madjuana, why not just say “marriage” instead of “same sex marriage”?

  127. Pat Johnson said

    I see no difference in attempting to raise an issue as to Obama’s governance so far on blogs that clearly are in his corner when those who are supposedly viewed as feminist retreats react in the same way.

    We have not advanced very far if a respectful opposing view is raised but then banned, deleted, or treated with derision simply for divergence. When serious dialgoue is shut down for emotional reasons rather than outright reasoning or ponderance, exactly what is the point in the first place?

  128. la-t-da said

    “Is it still sexism when a woman is the attacker???”

    Indeed when a women is basing the behavior of a man as a DNA issue. As someone pointed out above, women and men, have the same as men.

  129. garychapelhill said

    I guess I should have said “what’s sexist about that”.

  130. la-t-da said

    madjuana, that is why the March on DC is being promoted as what it is, a 14th amendment issue. Cleve Jones is beginning to make this point loud and clear, thus the march or our “agenda” is not seen only as a gay marriage issue. (My preference has always been civil unions, btw.)

  131. janicen said

    “We have not advanced very far if a respectful opposing view is raised but then banned, deleted, or treated with derision simply for divergence. When serious dialgoue is shut down for emotional reasons rather than outright reasoning or ponderance, exactly what is the point in the first place?”-Pat Johnson
    ——–

    Excellent point! Along with “banned, deleted, or treated with derision…” I would add, “ignored”.

  132. la-t-da said

    The DNA thing. That is just shy of saying her hormones made her do it . Or his testosterone takes us to war. (I think that is sexist as well.)

  133. Three Wickets said

    Speaking as a man, in electoral politics at least, the Democratic Party used to have more meaning for me than the women’s movement, though I have always been an active supporter of the latter. But in the past year, that Party (embodied in particular by the current Potus and DNC) has abandoned many of its principles and life long constituents, and at the not-so-subtle expense of women to boot. As a result, I find that I am now that much more motivated by the fight for women’s rights and the rights of all other groups and constituents who rightly feel they have been exiled by the Democratic Party. They are so few hetero male elected officials who put women’s rights and gay rights anywhere near the top of their agenda. I think of Bill Clinton, and no one else comes to mind. I probably would have a harsher view of Elizabeth Dole if it weren’t for this past year. I probably would slam Barney Frank more on the financial mess if it weren’t for this past year. So yes, I do think direct representation matters, and I do think threshold representations by gays and women will make a difference, as they do in many other developed governments abroad. The Potus is a different level than the Legislature or the Court, so I doubt I could vote for Palin if she does run as early as 2012. She needs more experience and her political positions are not yet fully formed and need to gel. Alaska is a very Republican State, which helps label her as a staunch conservative. But I believe she has her own strong personal convictions (the kind that Obama does not have) which were aggressively and rudely tested last fall, and personal convictions tend to shape ultimate political positions. Those convictions imo do not involve a master plan to undermine a woman’s right to choose, nor imo do they involve a personal homophobia that will compel her to fight against gay rights. The test, if she does run, is how much those convictions will buckle under pressure from the Republican primaries. She would be better off running as an Independent. But again to be clear and in my opinion, I do not think Sarah Palin is a fanatic on a mission to overtly or covertly challenge Roe or gay rights. That’s what the Obamacrats and their in house media franchise would like the world to believe. Although if she were in office, who knows, Palin might actually speak out for women and gays in a way that Obama clearly has no interest doing. And a final point. Palin is not Hillary, but if she does run, it will not be as an affirmative action woman. Her political ability, intelligence and intuition is vastly under-rated, imo. It was on clear display at the Republican Convention without the help of a teleprompter, before all the hyenas descended in the subsequent months. There was more integrity and natural leadership potential demonstrated in that speech than Obama’s 2004 Convention speech. I know most here will disagree with me, but that’s fine.

  134. SHV said

    as a DNA issue. As someone pointed out above, women and men, have the same as men.
    **********
    True, but the expression of what is “hard wired” in our DNA can be quite different between genders and individuals. As an example, male social aggression is the “alpha” male getting a few of his buddies together, finding another male and beating the crap out of him. Female social aggression is an alpha female forming a clique and verbally beating the crap out of another female. From the Darwinist’s point of view, both types of behavior provide a “reproductive” advantage.

  135. helenk said

    Gary and LaTda

    maybe this is one first step///////

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/mass_to_challen.html

    I hope it helps and maybe you could find out where to support it.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

  136. helenk said

    PS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  137. carolflowery said

    How much do you have to hate someone to refer to them
    as an IT
    IT came from Wasilla

    What if someone wrote an opinion piece on

    It Had a Kenyan father

    Do you think that would be right?

  138. Claudy said

    SHV- agreed!

    women compete for men – alpha males – in the “jungle” – therefore cut out female competition verbally as you say but also if need be violently.

    for some reason men are more capable of getting behind a leader and coloring within the lines whereas women splinter in all directions. sometimes men drive the wedge but all too often it is women who can not bear the idea of identifying with any other female…

    on our way to becoming civilized, we may want to work more diligently to override our gender programming.

  139. la-t-da said

    I am way off topic of Pat’s thread, but well end my participation in the conversation about DNA, by saying the “reproductive advantage” has now been taken over by a cultural issue.

    Women actually have the advantage now as, btw. Testosterone levels are dropping and this will lead to an evolutionary shift from the Darwian point of view. Evolution is still occurring as we type.

    Culture, group behavior, has a big hand in that. This is why it is vital to look at things as “reproductive rights” rather than just a cultural debate of “pro-life vs pro-choice.” One affects the other.

  140. Pat Johnson said

    carolflowery: Of course not. Anymore than referring to someone as a “gorilla” or calling her Scoop Mouth is. You seem to have missed my point.

  141. carolflowery said

    I think you will start seeing a trend. When Michelle travels
    with Obama, you wont see Hillary. When he goes it alone, Hillary
    will go. We’ve already seen it actually.

  142. Three Wickets said

    OT for sec, Pat I liked the painting up top, so I look up the artist, and I like his work. Kind of van Gogh on steroids.

  143. Pat Johnson said

    3W: taggles deserves credit for the selection. It is striking.

  144. carolflowery said

    I dont think Michelle is love with Hillary. She was
    the one who said or implied Hillary couldnt run her
    own house. Obama called her “annie oakley”
    Bush was referred to as a monkey many times.
    Obviously, people who are black tend to think
    this is some kind of evolution statement only for them.
    Hell, a vendor had to stop selling t shirts in Atlanta

    with curious george the monkey on it with Obama 2008

    It’s not like we dont know they are humans. but hell, why
    argue that dumbass debate

  145. chatblu said

    I’m wondering if the Michelle adulation will slide in a direct relationship with Barack’s numbers. Rasmussen is reporting an approval rating of -3. WSJ and Gallop polls are also showing steady declines. It will be fascinating to see if she slides as well, since (and I may be wrong) I have not seen her really stake out her own causes as of yet.

  146. chatblu said

    Correction: today’s Rasmussen poll numbers show an approval rating of -8.

  147. garychapelhill said

    I was looking for that article that I mentioned that pretty much told michelle to back off lest she suffer the same fate as Hillary. I still haven’t found it, but I did find this which is basically the same message although much more subtle and outwardly praising MO. It is still gut wrenchingly sexist though (and written by a “feminist” woman)…

    Women can scent normality at 100 paces, not to mention through the pages of a glossy magazine. We know it when we see it. And while we can be merciless about other women, passing judgment on them in an instant, we are keen on sisterhood, too. Obama feels like a sister: feminine, and with hard-felt ideas about domesticity, but in no sense a daffy pinny-wearer; tough and ambitious, but without having appropriated male behaviour as a way of getting on.

    This paradigm shift feels like a minor miracle, and you can’t help but feel that Hillary Clinton, so often and so horribly reviled, must look at Michelle, in her perky cardigans and her J Crew skirts, and wonder how she has pulled it off.

    so “normalcy” is acting like a good wife and mommy and not rocking the boat. And she actually tries to convince us that this is what feminisim is all about!!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/may/03/michelle-obama#rachelcooke

  148. RIChris said

    Actually, these same women who have supported Palin have done so by making the comparison to Hillary’s woes. Otherwise, these women believe that Republicans, men or women, are meaningless. As long as women continue to pick and choose which women to support, there will always be the great divide.

  149. chatblu said

    PERKY? Gag me with a spoon.

  150. helenk said

    3Wickets
    I do know that Sarah Palin is no Hillary Clinton. But there is only one like Hillary in a lifetime. Another may come close.
    But to have the knowledge,perseverance,loyalty,patriotism and charisma of Hillary Clinton is a once in a lifetime deal.
    The DNC cheated this country out of one of the greatest presidents we could have and I will never forgive or forget.
    I think Sarah Palin if she wants to run later in life will use the time to connect with the base, learn the basics, and attract new voters and donations.
    I think she is a smart, knowledgeable,loyal, and willing to learn woman.
    Many will not agree with me but I believe that Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin could work together on many issues for the betterment of the country.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  151. carolflowery said

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/07/07/obama-buries-hillarytwice/

    an interesting take on Hillary SOS

  152. miss becky said

    i decided to post a comment w/o reading others. i don’t like meeechelle obama, but have come across some website that have postings that i deem cruel and untoward. if the same were said about hillary i would not like it. i hope to maintain my ability to be objective here, and say that it isn’t right to single out body parts to be ridiculed. i saw on one blog a whole series of posts regarding meeechelle’s butt size. i mean, come on. are there any of us who would object to this if it were hillary? let us maintain the same standards for those we dislike as we have for those we like. i take no pleasure in seeing a woman ridiculed for something which is irrelevant. please, keep your heads. what is wrong for one is wrong for another regardless of their name. regardless of their political stripes. take a deep breath folks.

  153. madamab said

    Dear Pat,

    I love you. Thank you for this wonderful post.

    XOXOXO

    MB

    (am back at work, that’s it for me)

  154. helenk said

    If someone called me “perky” they would think Russia landed when I got through with them. Perky reminds me of an annoying yapping lapdog that is not taken seriously.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  155. SHV said

    The DNC cheated this country out of one of the greatest presidents we could have and I will never forgive or forget.
    *********
    I think that also destroyed an unstated American myth, that in times of crisis, leadership with rise to the occasion. Washington, Lincoln, FDR and if the trend of American history was to c0ntinue, Hillary Clinton. Instead, in a time of peril, we end up with an unprepared, narcissistic, dilettante as President. So much for the happy ending.

  156. la-t-da said

    MB, if you are still here, I hope you got my messages down below, a few threads back about my failure to put a smiley face behind a comment I made to you.

  157. Fredster said

    I have poked fun at M.O. in the past because I’ve seen so many things written up about her being such a fashionista and the comparisons being made to Jackie’s time in the W.H., the “glamour” etc. I don’t see it.

    Then do you remember the comment in, I believe, OH, where she made the comment about the Bush $600 stimulus check? To paraphrase she said something like “What can you do with that? Buy a pair earrings?” And then of course there’s the working in the soup line in her $300-400 pair of sneakers.

    I haven’t seen any Michelle is a c*nt tee-shirts, nor have I seen any speculation as to whether her daughter actually had the kid she said she had. If you want to see a snide, bitchy tv spot on Palin, go over to Reclusive Leftist’s site and look at the (why did it surprise me) hit piece by Mrs. Alan Greenspan, aka Andrea Mitchell.

  158. Pat Johnson said

    miss becky: You get it! And although we all can concede that there are some pretty horrible sites out there who happily engage in this type of smear, my complaint is against those women who rise up now in sheer outrage at the Palin smears who have done the same to others.

    IMHO, you cannot have it both ways.

  159. chatblu said

    Fredster, was it not hilarious to see Andrea Mitchell in a life vest interviewing Sarah Palin as they whizzed across the Bay? She really looked disgusted with the whole thing.

  160. Fredster said

    Too many “comments” in my comment but if you don’t like it:

  161. Pat Johnson said

    Fredster: As I have said, public pronouncements are fair game. But the size of your arms, butt, feet, mouth is something that cannot be changed. That should be off limits. And to be perfectly clear, if Michele makes stupid comments like she did, then the criticism is earned. The same goes for Palin.

    My objection lies more in the belief that it is somehow okay to use personal attacks against someone who may not be in favor but blast those who would use the same tactics against one you do.

    It does not compute.

  162. Pat Johnson said

    Fredster: I LOVE YOU!!!!!!! You always know the right time to turn this thing on!

  163. Shadowfax said

    I love this discussion, combining ideas of PUMAs from two blogs. We should do it more often.

    Personally I have been voting for women for about 15 years when ever I can’t decide on one candidate over another, just to give women a leg up in the political arena. I will continue to do so.

    Although Nancy P. is from my state, I will not vote for her… for her corrupt political practices in this election and for her pushing a stimulus package full of pork on the House. I will never vote for Donna, no matter what she runs for.

    There are women on my shit list, and men alike that I will never vote for.

    Every other woman is open game for getting my support. The only men I will vote for in the future are men I have well researched that I totally agree with. Right now, I can’t think of one I still feel that way about except for Bill Clinton and he will never run for a political position again.

    I can understand your post Pat, to be aware before we point a finger at someone else and proclaiming ourselves true feminists while at the same time attacking another woman.

    We all have our own definition of what a feminist is, if we think we are old school or new feminists, if men can be one or not, yet we all have one thing in common, the dilemma of how to move women forward in our society.

    Being aware of the problems and tossing out ideas like Murphy has done will give us all something to consider.

    I was on the blog when Ladyhawke made her comment, I did not think that her comment was outstanding enough to warrent a discussion this far in the future.
    I have gone on a few rants myself on a blog or two over the past year or more and this was no different for her.
    Deleting comments off the blog is too much censorship that leads to hard feelings by many and shuts down communication and learning.

    We are all big girls and guys by now, no parents need to stick us in a corner and blog about our sins months later. This isn’t a christian school yard.
    The blog belongs to it’s owner and one of the things I love most about Murphy’s blog is her ability to be open minded and more than fair. She doesn’t jump to conclusions and carry a big stick. Likewise, she isn’t responsible for the thoughts or comments of her bloggers.

    As far as voting for Sarah Palin goes, in my book it will depend on if she runs for an office and who she is running against. If she runs against just Obama, she has my vote no matter what. If she runs against another female that I am more aligned with, no vote for Sarah. If she runs against Hillary……there is no contest.

  164. SHV said

    OT….More Obama is a lying POS.

    “AIDS Activists Arrested After Shutting Down Capitol Rotunda”

    http://www.rollcall.com/news/36623-1.html

    Basically Obama refuses to follow through on promise to end Bush’s ban on Federal money for needle exchange programs. Reason??? Same old stock answer: “Obama loves needle exchange programs but rather than reverse an exec. order with an exec. order, better to do to it with Congressional action”. So with that glib WH explanation, how many avoidable HIV infections has Obama created. I suspect that his behavior disproportionally affects AAs.

  165. carolflowery said

    PaT, WHAT YOU SAID, is Obama’s playbook

    Pat Johnson permalink
    miss becky: You get it! And although we all can concede that there are some pretty horrible sites out there who happily engage in this type of smear, my complaint is against those women who rise up now in sheer outrage at the Palin smears who have done the same to others.

    IMHO, you cannot have it both ways.

  166. Fredster said

    as they whizzed across the Bay?

    chatblu: Actually I wish someone would have whizzed on Andrea. 8O

    Now that’s a woman I have purely and intensely disliked since the primaries. I don’t think I saw one honest and fair report she did during the primaries, but then consider who she works for.

    PJ: I’ve made comments about her legs, feet and arms. And that’s because to me she has no fashion sense. Being tall enough for womens basketball, I don’t see her as being the epitome of what’s on the cover of Vogue. (FWIW I don’t think emaciated women are the height of fashion either; just my opinion) But, I’ve never said she had that slutty flight attendant look either. (I dearly hope Dave flies commercial some time and ends up with a hot cup of coffee in his crotch one day)

    Okay I’m done with comments on this one. Boy I tell ya it’s rough when I throw in a kma and don’t get a laugh from PJ.

  167. janicen said

    Holy cow, SHV! Again? The “better to do it with Congressional action…” excuse is becoming this year’s version of voting “Present”.

  168. SHV said

    The “better to do it with Congressional action…” excuse is becoming this year’s version of voting “Present”.
    *********
    I hadn’t thought of that but you are exactly right!!

  169. SimoFish said

    Maybe is we stopped putting everyone in a box / category / etc we may make some progress — every single person in this world will be discriminated against, made fun of – laughed at, hated, loved, pushed around, etc. etc. — we all just need to figure out how to survive using the friends, family resources we have. All the ism’s in the world will always be here.

    Do I feel absolutely powerless over what happened to Hillary — yep. I try every day to figure out how that doesn’t happen again — I also think the Democratic Party will do everything they can to keep her down. They love Michelle not Hillary. I don’t want to be part of them any longer. I HATE Obama and Michelle for calling Hillary a racists and doing anything and everything to win at any costs. I no longer give a shit if someone calls me a racists. Guess what – I don’t like all black, brown, yellow, white people — shocker – but I don’t. I especially don’t like a lot of queer or straight people.

    If we keep on labeling people we’ll never get past the labels. I am SimoFish – that’s it and that’s all.

  170. Fredster said

    Okay I got my laugh from PJ, I just didn’t see it at first. :lol:

  171. Pat Johnson said

    Shadowfox: Thank you for responding. Let me again point out the purpose and what I felt needed to be said once again. And please understand, that I never cited any one particular blog in my essay. There are others as well. My response was more to the commentators who want it both ways.

    As I said, over the weekend I left a comment on a feminist blog, offering an opinion that differed with most of the posters that day. In a matter of minutes I was swarmed with female posters who refused to look beyond their version of events, completely casting Palin in the role of victim and refusing to entertain any other viewpoint. Some of these same posters have in the past made some very egregious comments regarding other women, most notably MO.

    But as they rose up in defense of Palin, according those who did not support her as just another sexist or a troll bent on making the rounds, it brought to mind so many unflattering comments issued against another woman while standing four square in the defense of another.

    The whole thing made me angry. The sense of perspective, IMHO, had been totally lost. Some of my commentary struck a chord but I was trying to be careful in singling anyone out. That was not the issue. The issue was the hypocrisy of leveling blame against one group without recognizing that the same was being dished out by themselves.

    As women we should stick by one another when unfairness or misogyny is being upheld. Statements on policy are fair game. But when legitimate criticism or questions are put forth that are mistaken for an “attack” I truly believe we are overreaching and basing these arguments from a purely emotional level.

    I am not excusing myself by any means. I too have taken a poke every now and then and I have come to appreciate my own contribution. But the “outrage” must be challenged if it is to be met with any degree of substance.

  172. SHV said

    He is the WH explanation for helping to increase the HIV positive population of the US.

    “Yet Obama’s budget includes language that bans spending federal money on needle-exchange programs.

    White House spokesman Ben LaBolt said the administration isn’t yet ready to lift the ban – but Obama still supports needle exchange.

    “We have not removed the ban in our budget proposal because we want to work with Congress and the American public to build support for this change,” he said.”

  173. garychapelhill said

    has he lifted that travel ban on HIV yet? even the things that get reported that he has “done” always seem to evaporate into thin air. same thing goes for ENDA and hate crimes. I’ve heard obots actually suggest that he has followed through on those issues when he actually said he is “looking into the matter”. SHV, he is a lying sack of shit and a coward and a bigot to boot.

  174. Fredster said

    Guess what – I don’t like all black, brown, yellow, white people — shocker – but I don’t. I especially don’t like a lot of queer or straight people.

    How dare you Simofish! We’re all supposed to love one another, sing songs and I guess hug a lot. BTW-could you give us the short list of who you do like? ;-)

  175. EricaLeigh said

    3W, As for your assessment of the Dem party and of Sarah Palin, I agree with you completely.

    And was it Helen who said we were cheated out of our rightful president, the one who could have handled economic and foreign affairs with grace, diligence, and intelligence? Truer words were never written. Count me in as one who will never forget. A crime is a crime, and the DNC committed a colossal one on all of America.

  176. garychapelhill said

    to answer my own question: NO

    A rule that prevents many HIV-positive immigrants and travelers from entering the United States will likely be lifted before the year is up, after the Department of Health and Human Services earlier this month recommended changing the regulation.

    and you’ll never see that actually GWB supported this as well because it is utterly indefensible after so many fucking years. I’ll believe it when I see it though…and SHV you’re right too, HIV may still have the stigma as a “gay disease”, but it is rapidly becoming an african american health crisis, and particularly for AA women. Yet there is no outcry from that community on Obama’s ignorance of the HIV pandemic.

  177. Fredster said

    White House spokesman Ben LaBolt said the administration isn’t yet ready to lift the ban – but Obama still supports needle exchange.

    I don’t care if he “supports” it or not. If he can’t put the money into it, it’s bullshit and cheap talk. As I’ve said before, what an asshole, no convictions.

  178. garychapelhill said

    my link:

    http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/hiv-99759-aids-health.html

  179. SHV said

    SHV, he is a lying sack of shit and a coward and a bigot to boot.
    **********
    Preaching to the choir. If the Fed. money for needle exchange can be reversed by exec. order and he refuses to do it, the only words that come to mind are “crime against humanity”.

  180. Fredster said

    I’m changing topics: USA is running all of the “Royal Pain” shows they’ve shown to date. Has anyone watched the show? I love it so far. It’s funny and I love how it pokes fun at the Hamptons set.

  181. garychapelhill said

    jeebus pat, I think you’re going to set a record for hits with this post, and it’s only your first week! are you sure you aren’t some professional blogger under a pseudonym???

  182. Pat Johnson said

    Jesus gary, aren’t you ready to fire me yet?

    Fredster: I love that show!

  183. SimoFish said

    Fredster — My short list of what I do like —- PUMA’s & animals — then all those little things in life – Zachary’s pizza, homemade ice cream – farm food – cooking !!! BTW — PUMA’s as in people — OH, all things Deborah Harry (Blondie) and most of all the Mrs !! Really, really, really like her !!

  184. Zee said

    Oo! I second every single thing janicen said about michelle’s wardrobe and about palin’s reasons for stepping down. Ah. how relaxing. :)

    As far as letting “gorilla” comments stand, after an entire show of Anderson Cooper throwing a spittle-flecked fit over that stupid Curious George Obama tee shirt….with nary one single word the entire election season about the Sarah Palin is a Cun# tee shirt, or the Obama-Hillary bros before hoes tees shirts or the Hillary nutcrackers or the Palin blow up dolls, I am completely over thinking a simian reference is the end-all of taboos.

    There are plenty of racist, sexist, and homophobic and xenophobic statements out there. And, darn it all, I lost the nym of the poster upthread who said that women’s consciousness develops at different paces (or something like that) but it’s true. I’ve posted many times how I used to call Ann Coutler “Mann” Coulter until someone over at TGW enlightened me how offensive that could be to certain communities.

    It’s one thing to ban a poster who continues to make racist, homophobic or sexist remarks. It’s another thing to give a long-time poster something to think about —and the time it takes to think it over. I didn’t immediately “get” or even agree with the objections to “Mann Coulter.”

    I sympathize, Pat, with your frustration over the treatment at the hands of a group mentality, but that’s all too often the reality in online communities. I have experienced the same treatment in droves. If I have time to stand my ground, I do, but I don’t get bent out of shape by absurdities, such as being called an Obot. I mean, after all…think of the level of reasoning power behind the poor confused soul who would mistake a Pat Johnson or a Zee as an Obot!

    Not to mention, it’s not even been a day or two since taggles mistakenly thought I was accusing her of “obot tactics” when I was raising a concern about her using a talking point I’d seen used by obots. Thank goodness I was still online to clarify, because in the speed of writing and reading in an online delayed-conservational exchange it’s all too easy to misinterpret intent. I didn’t want someone *decidedly not an Obot* to use a talking point that i thought detracted from the rest of the discussion.

    It is frustrating to try to buck a prevailing line of thought. I get clobbered every single time I try to debunk the myth of “voter fraud” — a well-worn Republican rag doll.

    But, get real. These communities get close knit. They close ranks. Even here, I’ve seen dissenting opinion, such as Cinie expressed over the NOW election, stir up some pretty entrenched back and forths. I could be mistaken, but I think Cinie takes a similar stance I do….determined not to let such incidents color future interactions.

    It seems to be that Murphy is taking a similar stance here, too. I hope so!

  185. Zee said

    SHV, thanks for that Obama AIDS update! Another despicable pattern he is showing! Even as the top executive he’s found a way to vote “present.”

  186. Pat Johnson said

    Zee: I hope so too.

  187. simofish said

    I am just so damn frustrated anymore I don’t know what to think.

  188. SHV said

    OT…Obama’s cowardice on the needle exchange issue may be the worst yet…..IMHO, his failure to act is the Public Health equivalent of a War Crime.

  189. garychapelhill said

    simo, pumas, the animals are nice too. Mawm and I spent a couple of hours watching them at the NC zoo last year. beautiful creatures.

    Pat, I am going to Lowe’s right now. I’ve been a bad boy today and spent time blogging when I should be sanding and painting cabinets. If I could get you to come help me do that AND write exceptional blogposts, I certainly would, but fire you? Never!! :)

  190. Shadowfax said

    Pat…
    I did understand what you were saying in your post and I didn’t think you were attacking a particular blog, although the example and heated conversation did happen months ago on the pac blog and that is why I stated it.
    Murphy was gone for a few days and many people that normally did not blog there with the rest of us came by and things got a little out of hand.

    By out of hand I do not mean they should have been censored, but that many went away with hard feelings from the discussion. I can’t quite remember what was going on at that time politically but I do remember the time frame was when we all had very raw nerves and a combined sense of political hopelessness towards the party most of us had supported all our lives. I think we were all at wits end and with ‘new’ PUMAs on the blog tossing out frustration things got a little raw. Since Murphy was dealing with her own life problems, she wasn’t able to jump in and bring a sense of calm that she usually does. We have lots of high spirited people over there, myself included and she does a much better job then any other group of PUMAs I have seen recently.
    Pat, what I am trying to say is that all we really have these days is eachother. We have days that we can’t take the bad news any longer and run to the blogs to blow off steam. Maybe being a little kinder to each other and talking though the bad days and reaching commonality is the best way.
    We all have more in common then we do with most others in our country right now. We may not agree, that is okay, we didn’t before we became PUMAs, but we are still all together and that is huge in my book.

  191. Pat Johnson said

    While we sit here bantering back and forth, the Iranians are back out in the streets, risking their lives and their freedoms, to stand up for what they believe.

    Kind of puts things into perspective.

  192. garychapelhill said

    here’s some video I shot of the pumas at the zoo!! (I added the jungle sounds) later everyone!

  193. Pat Johnson said

    This is what I love about animals. They know their own place in the world. They have no need to mix emotion into their daily lives and follow their instincts for survival. Unlike us who mix in the emotion thus turning everything upside down.

    Humans have yet to learn their place in the world. Which is why we are so f*cked up.

  194. la-t-da said

    I know, Gary, about the hits on this thread. I guess you aren’t a dishwasher anymore, Pat. I am never doing another thread again. LOL I think mine was only an echo chamber. LOL I do hope for more one day. I would like to at least move up to busgirl. (Be careful what you ask for, la t da.)

  195. Pat Johnson said

    la t da: Believe me when I tell you tomorrow’s will be “vanilla” in comparison

  196. Zee said

    What Shadowfax said, 100%!

    Well said, Shadowfax!

    I would only add that Pat included the “gorilla” comment as one example amongst many, and did not name the commenter, so I think it was not Pat who called overmuch attention to that one remark….it simply became a topic of conversation in the thread because so many of us remember it.

    That is a far cry from when Riverdaughter lent her blog to a clown who called me out, by nym, and devoted an entire rant to one comment I made in a thread on another blog! Seeing as he has his own blog, and as I have none, I thought that was rather an abuse, not to mention a waste of her space.

    In general, I agree…random comments taken out of context from amongst an ephemeral discussion don’t really warrant that much scrutiny. But in this case, Pat was talking about a pattern.

    Personally, I think it’s not a widespread problem, but it does crop up often enough to warrant discussion. And I think you’re never going to eradicate all discussions of people’s wardrobe and body parts…and to tell the truth, I’m not sure I’d want to. I lmfao at the youtube of John Edwards primping his hair over and over to the tune of “I feel pretty.” But, yes, thanks to TGW and other sites, I do know that it’s sexist to belittle a man by accusing him of being too FEMININE.

    So just put me down for okaying scrutiny of BOTH Palin’s and Michelle’s wardrobes!

  197. Zee said

    Ack! My last comment is in moderation…if anyone can retrieve it!

    I basically agreed with shadowfax upthread!

    I have to run…will check back later!

  198. Zee said

    Oh, whew….there it is….great conversation, will be back late/r!

  199. HT said

    Pat, you always seem to touch the nerve center. Well done. There needs to be a lot of discussion of behaviors that have become endemic without thought or reason. You have started the discussion – may it continue, because without it, people will not realize that they have become tools of the astroturf – active on all sides. Without it, people will not realize that they need to investigate and think for themselves. Without it, we become what Orwell foretold.

  200. HT said

    Clean up required. Some folks have an agenda that has nothing to do with the post at all. Hambeast is one of those folks with an agenda of hatred.

  201. Pat Johnson said

    Zee: Again that was not the issue. It’s that when we find ourselves doing the same thing we decry, then this is where hypocrisy comes into play.

    If one chooses to make unflattering comments and snarky remarks than turns around and blasts others for doing the exact same thing, how can it not be?

    Chastising others for being unfair and sexist while doing the same thing is where I was going.

  202. la-t-da said

    Who, let the dogs out. Hang around without the kennel a bit.

  203. Three Wickets said

    The comment just above from HamBeast on PumaPac is out of line.

  204. Fredster said

    My Gawd Pat you’ve hit the big time! You have your first troll. I hope the showed you how to handle them.

  205. la-t-da said

    Didn’t take long for them to jump on in, HT. Now they can go back home and play tag-team between here and over there. Ain’t gonna happen hamster.

  206. Fredster said

    Oh HamBeast:

  207. la-t-da said

    Darn, Pat, you made Hamster go away. There is great release in troll bowling, Pat. Refocuses all that energy as to whom we are really fighting.

  208. EricaLeigh said

    HamBeast–wow, that name says it all…

  209. Pat Johnson said

    Fredster: I would ask you to show me how to embed this but I would be afraid to take the “fun” out of it for you and “surprise” when it shows up out of me!

  210. la-t-da said

    Seems we are all pretty familiar with troll bowling over here. It used to be one of my favorite activities…when everyone released they were a troll. I do like me some gang activity sometimes and in some circumstances.

  211. HT said

    La-t-da, I’m sure he’s one of the troops that troll puma sites, then reports back to his misogynist masters, so they can publish the responses and attempt to make puma appear silly. Think wonky, or loincloth-roast. Both ridiculous sites that exist to make fun of voters with whom they don’t agree, and particularly vicious towards anyone who doesn’t support their messiah, the BLESSED BHOwithoutaclue.

    Fredster, I haven’t been posting much lately, but may I iterate, I love you!

  212. Shadowfax said

    Pat Johnson permalink

    Zee: Again that was not the issue. It’s that when we find ourselves doing the same thing we decry, then this is where hypocrisy comes into play.

    If one chooses to make unflattering comments and snarky remarks than turns around and blasts others for doing the exact same thing, how can it not be?

    Chastising others for being unfair and sexist while doing the same thing is where I was going.
    ——-
    Okay, now I am really confused Pat as to why you keep saying the same thing over and both Zee and I don’t seem to be connecting with you.

    I guess you have your own thoughts and something is there that isn’t getting though to us.

    Are you talking specifically about Murphy?

  213. la-t-da said

    Yah, I’m pretty familiar with the “stupid” sites.

  214. Fredster said

    PJ: Just go to youtube and copy the link address and paste it into the comments block.

    BTW: I found the best explanation so far for Palin’s resignation. WTF-makes as much sense as anyone else’s:

  215. la-t-da said

    Yes, the “gorilla” incident did happen at pumapac, Shadow. Most of us were there for it. As do why, Pat, did not reference it as pumapac, I don’t know. Ask her.

  216. taggles said

    new post up.

  217. blueinPrahaTX said

    I help run an International Youth Leadership Conference, which incidentally now hosts 65% young women and 35% young men, and last conference we had our first panel on gender and leadership. One of the panelists was an American woman who happened to be AA who brought up the subject of sexism in the U.S. presidential election by talking about the way Michelle Obama was treated. At first I was floored, but after reflection I realised she was partially right.

    Three people were singled out by the press and bloggers from both sides of the aisle in the election:

    In the primary Hillary took it on the chin from the MSM, the right and the left “progressives” and Modo.

    In the primary Michelle got it from the right for being an angry black woman and later after her “Hillary is a racist and can’t manage her own house” from the Pumasphere. (I see this more as backlash than mysogyny but still bad).

    After the conventions Sarah was reamed by the progressives, young feminists and eventually the MSM and even now Modo.

    BHO was never scrutinised or heavily criticized even by McCain. He eventually passed on his magic to Michelle once he was elected and she became bathed in the reflected glory.

    McCain also was treated relatively well.

    All three of the people screwed by the press in this election cycle were women. Even Cindy McCain got more negative press on HuffPost than her husband.

    All of this mysogyny makes me cringe but I think the women who actually put themselves out there on the political stage, like Sen. Clinton and Gov. Palin, in a serious way(so I am not directly defending Caroline Kennedy) deserve more of our defense than Michelle and Cindy. On the other hand we should be careful not to demean them as well.

    No “nutcracker” comments.
    No “crybaby” comments.
    No “angry black woman” comments.
    No “slut” comments.
    No “barbie” comments.
    No “MILF” comments.
    No “gorrilla” comments.
    No “angry first wife outside the court” comments.

    Also much fewer negative comments about clothes, style and appearance (positive or negative); please, when do men comment on each other’s suits when talking about politics?

    Above all no “Bitch” comments, except when referring to Maureen Dowd who somehow managed to disparage all of the women in this election season except for her balls to the wall defense of Caroline Kennedy????

    And NEVER any “C#nt” comments. EVER.

    Basically more respect for all public women and strong, resounding defense of those who put themselves into the political inferno by seriously running for public office.

  218. Jmac said

    Thank you, Pat Johnson.

    This was posted above: “One thing I take slight issue with is the idea that feminists can’t criticize Michelle for her role as First Stepford Wife.”

    I chose to stay home and not use my education while raising a family. Maybe that makes me a Stepford wife, but I still consider myself a feminist and the choice to stay home was a choice I don’t regret.

  219. blueinPrahaTX said

    Bigotbasher are you Modo incognito?

    “Their treatment of Caroline Kennedy by PUMAs generally, who had the gall to throw her name in for the selection of New York Senator was worse than any treatment thrown at either Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin.”

    So being called C#nt and Slut and Bitch and Harpy and Nutcracker or MILF is worse than being called “Princess”? Also no one was attacking Caroline Kennedy’s children like they attacked Palin’s and Hillary’s.

    I agree that no true feminist would attack Michelle and her children but after being greatly provoked during the primaries by Michelle’s comments about Hillary managing her own house(Bill cheating) and being racist I think some Hillary supporters just lost it.

    From your tone I can’t tell if you are bashing bigots or are a bigot who likes to bash.

    Seriously, Maureen is that you?

  220. Boo Radly said

    tbb- you need to educate yourself before making sweeping statements. TRUTH needs to be a part of the equation. I have no idea what blog did not mention Dr.Tiller but this one did it great detail.

    “Their treatment of Caroline Kennedy by PUMAs generally, who had the gall to throw her name in for the selection of New York Senator was worse than any treatment thrown at either Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin. What is worse it was concentrated hate. How much fun did groups – even like The New Agenda have referring to Caroline as “Princess”.”

    What do you call someone who had not voted in ten years let alone have any experience in any level of politics asking to take Hillary Clinton’s Senate seat? This, after stating the unqualified Obama reminded her of her father? I call that entitlement pure and simple.

    If you have a problem with NoQuarter – go talk to them. A lot of people had their eyes opened by Ted Kennedy, Maria S., Patrick Kennedy, and Princess Caroline. We are living with their pandering to an unqualified, inexperienced and highly unprincipled “selected” prez now. This is not my blog but I think you have issues that we can’t help you with.

    There are two “dark days” I want to mention to you – the SCOTUS appointing Bush the first time and the MOV selecting Obama. Those are glaring dark days. O’s spent 150 days backtracking every important promise he has made – do I smell troll? Is that you ABG?

  221. HT said

    Clean up again required. Bigotbuster is a regular contributer to the wonky site, and a poster on the loinpork roaster site that lives to mock Pumas.

  222. HT said

    Loinpork roaster aka rumproast and stupid pumas.

  223. blueinPrahaTX said

    HT – how did you make the bashing bigot post go away? You have actual magical powers.

    If only it were as easy to cleanse the editorial section of the NYT of misogynists.

  224. blueinPrahaTX said

    Oops,

    spoke too soon.

    The bashingBigot,

    You are selectively quoting, which is stupid since everyone can read the original posts. I was comparing and contrasting the degree of hatred, vitriol and insults leveled at Hillary/Palin and their families versus Kennedy. Also I agreed with you about Michele Obama receiving her share of those insults including those aimed at her family which you would have known had you read my first post.

    You are obviously not a conflicted feminist but either a knee jerk CDS/PDS “progressive” boy who likes to grope cardboard cutouts of women, an obot formerly known as Maureen Dowd, or John Favreaux. or all three.

  225. helenk said

    thebigotbasher
    When you have your brain surgery do want a doctor that has experience, performed a few operations or do you want a person whose father was a brain surgeon and thinks they can do the operation?

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  226. helenk said

    Should read
    do you want

  227. blueinPrahaTX said

    TBB,

    I would say both are sexist considering NO ONE would have brought up John JR.s’ sense of entitlement had he lived and asked to be appointed Senator, but one of those women (Sen. Clinton) had actually run for and held public office so comparing her “entitlement” when she ran for a higher public office versus a woman who had never run for any public office wanting to be appointed as a Senator without running might be a fair assessment of entitlement.

    BTW, I am not of this site or any other so I don’t know how your comments are being erased.

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