Activist Wednesday: Imagine No Religion?
Posted by: madamab on: March 31, 2010
- In: Feminism | Gay Rights | Open Thread | Patriarchy
- Comment!
Can You Believe We Eat This?!
This week is Holy Week for both Jooz and Christians; the week between Palm Sunday and Easter, and the week of Passover. People go to their holy places and sing, or listen to music, or eat, or don’t eat, and contemplate the mysteries of the universe, or check out the cute guy three pews ahead and to the left.
As for me, I’m getting more like my Communist grandfather (and my atheist mother) all the time. Suddenly the word “Socialist” is starting to sound better than the word “liberal.” (Liberal Socialist? Hmmmm….) Out on the street with my sign on Saturday, I ran into a blogger called “The Unrepentant Marxist,” who was thrilled to see me and my fellow travelers protesting in the streets. I kind of felt a little thrill myself.
Don’t worry, folks. I can’t go all the way, because I’m just not constructed to believe in any “ism” – nothing is absolute in this world, and no set of beliefs covers every contingency. But then again, that’s why I don’t think religion is all bad.
Wait, MadamaB, I hear you say. Isn’t all religion rooted in patriarchy? Well, except for Wicca (which is the one religion I might be able to belong to with a full heart) and possibly some other belief systems I know nothing about, I have to say, yes it is. The radical feminist Mary Daly did an interview in which she was questioned about the Buddha, and she had this to say:
WIE: …In the Pali Canon [principle Buddhist scriptures], the Buddha is reported to have said: “Ananda, if women had not obtained the Going Forth from the house life into homelessness in the Law and Discipline declared by the Perfect One [acceptance into the Buddha's monastic order], the Holy Life would have lasted long, the Holy Life would have lasted a thousand years. But now, since women have obtained it, the Holy Life will last only five hundred years. Just as when the blight called gray mildew falls on a field of ripening rice, that field of ripening rice does not last long—so too in the Law and Discipline in which women obtain the Going Forth, the Holy Life does not last long.”
MD: It’s just the same old song in a different language: “Women pollute.”
WIE: My question is: How do you think that Gautama the Buddha could have come to such an extreme position about half of the human race? What would you say to a Western Buddhist woman wrestling with the apparent incongruity of such an enlightened being holding such a woman-negative view?
MD: As I wrote in Gyn/Ecology: all patriarchal religions are patriarchal—right? They take different forms. What would I think? There’s nothing to think about. It has taken another form—seductive, probably, because christianity is so overtly warlike and abusive. And furthermore, I don’t know what “enlightened” means. It’s not a word that’s in my vocabulary. This is like a christian woman being upset over something that Paul said, instead of seeing that of course he’s an asshole. He’s one more very macho asshole described as a saint and as enlightened, and once you get over that, you get over it. You see it for what it is and you don’t worry about why he would say such a thing. Of course he would say such a thing. That’s what he is. It’s really extremely simple. Stop wrestling with it; it’s not interesting. Get out of it. That would be my approach to it. Misogynists! Hateful! All of them! I studied them. And finally I just didn’t try to reason with it anymore. Boston College was most enlightening to me. The experience of being fired for writing The Church and the Second Sex introduced me to the idea that it’s not going to change. That’s the way it is—leave it.
Although I feel that Mary Daly had some indisputable points, I do think that religion can move past its patriarchal roots and become a force for good and positive social change. The Reform Movement in Judaism has led to the formation of some very accepting and loving communities, including the one in which I sing. Episcopalian churches have begun to embrace their LGBT congregants and confirm gay bishops. And yet, the Catholic Church, which has not had a true reform movement in decades, has been covering up yet another horrible sex scandal. Patriarchy hurts everyone: men, women and children are all its victims.
Nothing is simple; no “ism” is absolute. So I say, I don’t want to imagine there’s no religion. I think people will always look for a spiritual connection to something that is larger than themselves, and that urge is, in the main, a good thing. Where I hope we will evolve, is to take the message of love that is the heart of humanity, and to spread it until there is no more hatred.
Happy Easter, Good Yontiv, Wonderful Wicca. This is an open thread.
(Oh, and I double-dog-dare you not to get chills when you listen to this piece. Bainton must have been channelling something divine.)
48 Responses to "Activist Wednesday: Imagine No Religion?"
March 31, 2010 at 9:15 AM
Janicen, you are so right about a choir director making all the difference. I couldn’t believe how beautiful that recording was.
The problem is, you are never going to get people to give up religion. It’s just something that some people need, I think. You can’t “reason” people out of it; faith is unmoved by reason. The “Doubting Thomas” story in the Bible, in fact, shows how to be a good Christian – don’t believe your lying eyes, believe what you can’t see instead!
But what you can do, is try to move it forward and focus on the love. Let the fundiegelicals fall by the wayside.
This is where a lot of us lefties go wrong, I think – because we are not religious, we look down on those that are; we feel we are superior to them and that our atheism or agnosticism makes us better people.
I disagree. I think if people are wired to be religious, they will be, and vice versa. You either believe in faith, or you believe in reason – and rarely shall the twain meet.
March 31, 2010 at 9:24 AM
I agree with you about people being wired to be religious. I never look down on religious people and I hate when people do. I was taught that you can learn something from everyone so you should never close your mind and judge people. I can’t let the fundies fall by the wayside, however. They want to control my life and they are in for a fight!
March 31, 2010 at 9:40 AM
Janicen – Oh, I totally agree. When I said “let them fall by the wayside,” I meant “kick them off the road and never let them back on again.”
Bless their hearts!
March 31, 2010 at 10:19 AM
Bless their hearts indeed. I sometimes wish that I were more religious. My mother’s family drew great comfort and peace from Catholicism. Of course, the traditional Church with the pomp and the Latin had its own peculiar glorious beauty that evaporated with Vatican II. I almost envy people who can draw inner peace from the concept of a higher power. Sadly, my Unitarian father taught me to say “why?” and that bolloxed up Catholicism for me. I find much good still in the Church – they care for the young, the old, the sick and the poor. However, their meddling in politics has become difficult to bear, and I wish that they would expend that energy on cleaning up their priesthood. Not that all priests are bad, mind you. Monsignour Reardon played the bass drum in my elementary school marching band, and he was a great guy. Father John Barry wrote the first guitar mass using Appalachian folk music. I’ve met some wonderful priests, and was fortunate (although I didn’t believe it at the time) to have done some time in grade school with the Sisters of Mercy. I can spell, I can do math without pencil or paper, and I learned the true meaning of “deadline” – e.g. turn it in or you’re dead – from these women. I became a much better student because of that time spent with the SOM, who literally gave everything up to educate we little heathens. That said, I was absolutely thrilled to see the Sisters of Mercy and Daughters of Charity break ranks with the Bishops and support health care – thank heavens they are thinking for themselves. Some faint, feeble hope sprang up in my lapsed Catholic heart.
March 31, 2010 at 10:35 AM
There’s a part of that wishes I could be religious. Because it seems so easy to just lay faults and mistakes and tragedies aside in the name of God. “That’s what God wants.” Or “God is just testing me.” Or “The Devil made me do it.” Or “God forgives me.” I think in some ways religion is for cowards. You can pass the buck (on either God or Devil) and wash your hands of your own guilty conscience.
March 31, 2010 at 10:38 AM
Someone just posted this on Facebook and it cracked me up:
“Obama’s not a brown-skinned anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You’re thinking of Jesus.” – John Fugelsang
March 31, 2010 at 10:41 AM
@6 – Yes, I particularly love how once you have been “born again,” you can literally do anything you want and it doesn’t matter. Your companions in faith will forgive you, and so will God! That’s why all those evangelical priests who slept with meth-addicted male hookers and female prostitutes got such a pass from many of their congregants. They’re born again. They’re doing the best they can!
March 31, 2010 at 10:45 AM
Here’s the galling part about the Catholic priests: should I go to confession and tell the priest that I have committed a serious crime, he would refuse me absolution until I turned myself in. When it comes to another priest, however, this does not seem to be the case, or is it that sexual abuse of children is not considered by the church to be a crminal act?
March 31, 2010 at 11:06 AM
@9 – I don’t know – maybe it’s sort of a “born again” thing with them too; like, they’ve dedicated their lives to God, so that means they are basically good and should be excused for their human foibles?
I find the whole idea of sexually abusing a child so abhorrent that I don’t even know how to express it. Anyone who would do that should be imprisoned for life until a cure is found for this perversion of sexuality, IMHO.
March 31, 2010 at 11:09 AM
You can’t make this stuff up: Obama is on board with off-shore drilling now.
Drill, baby drill indeed!
March 31, 2010 at 12:00 PM
Oh dear… Is he out of his mind? Does he want to be reelected? (Silly question… What will Obaland say about this, I wonder.)
March 31, 2010 at 12:10 PM
@10: I admire Washington State’s solution to pedophiles: Mc Neal’s Island.
March 31, 2010 at 12:12 PM
Environmentalists are not thrilled:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/obama-oil-drilling-plan-e_n_519553.html
March 31, 2010 at 1:50 PM
This is a funny photo. We should do a caption contest. (Someone posted it at Edge’s site.)
March 31, 2010 at 1:51 PM
At the varsity in Atlanta for Passover up can get a kosher beef dog with chilli on a matzo (no dairy of course)! its a hot seller this time of year!~
March 31, 2010 at 2:44 PM
@15 – 
!
“Let’s both hitch up our pants at the same time. It’ll be awesome!”
March 31, 2010 at 3:06 PM
In regard to religions (well, more like denominations) the United Church of Christ started several years ago opening up and ministering to LGBT people. You may recall seeing some of their commercials a couple of years back.
http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/issues/marriage-equality/
I would like to check them out further, but let’s face it-my plate is more than full right now.
March 31, 2010 at 3:52 PM
@19 – Fredster, I sang in a UCC church as a sub for more than a year. It was an extremely welcoming place for women and LGBT.
I remember that UCC put forth a commercial where two men (a couple) were trying to enter various churches, and the door kept closing on them…until they got to the UCC church, at which point the doors opened wide. Of course, it was not widely disseminated because it was “controversial.” 
March 31, 2010 at 4:02 PM
Mad-yeah that’s the one I was talking about.
A friend from college was music director and organist for a UCC church in his hometown.
You do know the joke about A.G.O.? It is the American Guild of Organists, but it really stands for Another Gay Organist. And my friend is the one who told me that one!
March 31, 2010 at 4:27 PM
Hee! The organists I know have a great sense of humor about themselves; I’m not surprised they told you that.
Actually, they tend to be sexually ambiguous too. I know two who graduated from my school (a little younger than I) who would pretty much screw anything that moved as long as it was adult and willing. 
March 31, 2010 at 4:35 PM
At least they were adult, willing, and moving. Three very important criteria.
March 31, 2010 at 4:58 PM
There *was* a line from some tv show or movie (I want to say Mary Hartman) something like “if it’s warm and got a pulse he’ll jump on it”. 
March 31, 2010 at 5:36 PM
Oh if only it wasn’t parody and satire.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-government-to-save-billions-by-cutting-wasteful,17171/
March 31, 2010 at 5:54 PM
Oh, Fredster! Priceless! From the Onion article:
So far, reaction to the cutback has been overwhelming positive, with many across the country calling it a long-awaited step toward progress.
Still, a small pocket of the nation’s populace vehemently disagreed with Tuesday’s decision.
“This is outrageous,” said Joe Lieberman, a Connecticut-area resident and concerned citizen who makes more than $150,000 a year, enjoys full health care benefits, and lives comfortably in a large, non-foreclosed home. “The U.S. Senate has always looked out for my best interests. It’s always done right by me.”
Added Lieberman, “Without it, I’ll have no choice but to exploit my extensive connections in the real estate, legal, insurance, and pharmaceutical industries to obtain strictly honorary positions at large companies that, in exchange for my subservience over the years and the prestige of my name, will compensate me generously and allow me to continue living a privileged life without contributing even a moment of my time to the society that has made it all possible.”
March 31, 2010 at 5:56 PM
Now I truly do believe Lieberman would say something like that.
March 31, 2010 at 6:15 PM
Some people are hard wired to need religion – the research in this area is really interesting.
Then there are the skeptics — I believe this is also innate.
I researched my family’s genealogy, focusing on church membership. My father’s side is Mormon — so the genealogy was already done (cheating — I was). My mother’s side — strong skeptics and fundamentalists fruitcakes. Quakers are the most interesting and probably account for the skeptics genes — Quakers married Lutheran — producing Agnostics for two generations and then Agnostics and fundi-fruitcakes. One aunt would sew bibles into her clothes and visit Communists countries to distribute the banned bibles.
The Family thinks that the way to create their version of a heaven on earth (and thus hasten the return of their christ) is to convert dictators who can “order” a whole country to become one brand of christian. But The Family doesn’t understand why people turn to religion and why some people remain skeptics.
The part that seems to be hard wired is called innate religiosity — externalized and internalized religion. Some people put on their religious mask for church only and other’s are born with compassion for others.
The con artists who sometimes become religious leaders have figured out that some people need religion and the con artists have learned to play the role of “religious father”.
Religious freedom enshrined in the Constitution is all about the right to believe — but at the same time those of us who are skeptics have the right to NOT believe. But even some skeptics love the ritual and beauty found in churches. My brother in law (jerk 0bot) goes to church because he loves to sing in the choir. He’s not a believer or member of any religion. (Although he was confirmed in the Lutheran church — the tradition of his immigrant parents).
What is interesting are the the hordes of skeptics who were conned by 0bowma and seem to be responding in the born again religious conversion pattern. The very group (skeptics) who should be resistant to the religious con tricks used by 0bowma — were fooled.
Mass Sociology, cult researchers in the future are going to be earning lots of PhDs investigating the cons used by the ultimate con-men (advertising execs.).
In the Caribbean — the celebration of Easter and Christmas are major events — much more so than in the US.
March 31, 2010 at 6:19 PM
@34, 35
Lieberman — it is so easy to imagine that’s what is running through his mind. Does he still have a SS guard? His ego needs the guard.
March 31, 2010 at 10:18 PM
Northwest -
What is interesting are the the hordes of skeptics who were conned by 0bowma and seem to be responding in the born again religious conversion pattern. The very group (skeptics) who should be resistant to the religious con tricks used by 0bowma — were fooled.
That is a very pertinent comment. The skeptics I know who were conned by him, are actually fairly sexist and self-regarding. Obama made them feel good about themselves.
March 31, 2010 at 10:19 PM
Back Bay – I’m so glad you liked the music. I was hoping that you would check in today!
March 31, 2010 at 10:29 PM
Hi MadamaB I’ve been sick with some awful virus. So thanks so much for the music it made me feel better.
Did you know there is a seldom heard St Cecelia “Sanctus” on Youtube sung by Jussi and an american choir in Detroit in 1938? Now that will stand the hair up on your neck. It’s in English which is a little jarring to me, having sung it in choir in Latin, but the young Jussi is beyond words. I would put it up, but don’t know how to embed yet.
Have a joyous weekend,
BBS
March 31, 2010 at 10:52 PM
Oh, BBS, I’m so sorry you’ve been sick. I hope you are feeling better!
The woman I work with was hospitalized by the flu for two weeks. There are some really bad bugs out there!
March 31, 2010 at 11:06 PM
There’s definitely something going around and it seems to start with people’s stomachs. Be careful out there! (Maybe they should raise the Terror warning up to Red.)
I just got home from an “Aida” at the Met. My friend and I left after Act 1. Nothing to see and hear there.
I also just gave another $200 to Connie Saltenstall. I got an e-mail from her asking for a donation before Wednesday midnight. Wednesday night must be a big deal because I got a similar e-mail from Chuck Schumer. This gave me an opportunity to unsubscribe from his mailing list.
March 31, 2010 at 11:38 PM
@39 — sexism seems to be the key uniter. The patriarchy — needs to control women, must control women in order to survive. It is a one or the other belief system.
I’ve got another book worth reading — 1491 – New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus – by Charles C. Mann. I’ve been following the debates in Archaeology & Anthropology for years. Mostly what we learned in high school about what the New World was like pre- Columbus, was a lie, and the college history texts aren’t much better.
There is a lot of evidence which suggests that the New World was pretty much filled with humans — who had radically changed their world to meet their needs. Mann presents the evidence on both sides — and shows us parts of the world that are rarely discussed in North American texts.
When I took Archaeology ages ago — my Prof was holding to the time line for humans crossing the land bridge was about 10,000 to 15,000 years ago (Clovis & Folsom points). There were even then strong arguments that humans had been in the “New World” much much longer. Consider the huge increase in population — and it seems logical that there must have been million more than our history books mythical stories suggest. The largest concentration of humans pre-Columbus was probably in Mexico. Along the eastern seaboard of North America there was also a huge population. Consider all of the teaming humanity (which were killed off by small pox etc.) and then try to believe that millions and millions of people didn’t have an impact and didn’t leave a trace.
My only complaint with “1491″ is that Chaco Canyon & the Anastasia was left out of this book. The Chacoian massive stone multi storied buildings found in the 4-corners region of the US (Colorado, Utah, New Mexico & Arizona). Anyone who has been to the National Park in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico comes away amazed that massive structures found in this remote Canyon are left out of text books.
This book isn’t about the “noble savage” — or the utopia myth. But it is about a very different organizational system that lead to civilizations that were massive in scale. The thing is that in many places there was a male/female balance of power. Barbara Mann – “Iroquoian Women” The Gantowisas (2004) also explores the male/female balance of power.
The patriarchal dominance — politically and religiously is really unhealthy for the world and for humans. That my “duh” statement for the day.
Women have made major contributions to Anthropology — pre-history according to the male mythology used to be macho macho — HUNTERS bringing home the meat to the helpless women. Then women started doing research and they found the women — the gathers. The gathers actually fed the clan/tribe and meat was a nice treat. The battles are still being fought in Academia — however, Mann’s book strips away the Academic blather and decodes tons journals and generations of research.
1491 is on Kendle.
April 1, 2010 at 7:27 AM
I ma sure this has already been mentioned didnt obama attend a united church of christ church?
April 1, 2010 at 7:39 AM
Fred Phelps clan is comming to gainesville on April 13th to speread love and christian understanding!
April 1, 2010 at 1:38 PM
@43 DYB, a friend wanted to go to NYC for Aida last fall, and neither of us could make it due ot illness in our families. What were your criticisms? I’d be interested to hear about it. I really miss the old stars. Even the semi-old singers. I’m sure there are a lot of gorgeous voices out there that are not being heard because the business is so commercialized now. I actually heard somewhere that MET pay was always low, and that they have gotten even worse in the past twenty years or so.
Comments are closed.
L 2012 – Support Your Local Lefties!
Recent Comments
 | madamab on New Year’s Eve Widdershi… |
 | Eddie on New Year’s Eve Widdershi… |
 | HT on New Year’s Eve Widdershi… |
| madamab on New Year’s Eve Widdershi… |
| madamab on Happy New Year – We… |
March 31, 2010 at 8:43 AM
Beautiful music, MB. Kudos to the choir director and the singers as well. I came to appreciate the difference a good choir director can make when my daughter moved from elementary school, where there was an excellent choir director, to middle school where there was a terrible choir director. I went to the first middle school choir concert and thought, “What happened?” I listened to the same group of singers in elementary school and they sounded wonderful. The very first concert when they had moved up to the middle school sounded awful. I learned then that a good choir director can make all the difference no matter how good the music and the singers are.
About religion, I don’t have any answers. I understand the need and benefit of spirituality, but religion has been used as the excuse for so much hate and prejudice. It reminds me of what my FIL always says, “…Religion is fine, it’s the people I hate…”